"Fist Fire" Grip...? Proper placement of the first 2-knuckles along the Trigger Guard

[ER_STL]

In my opinion it's the majority of the responses in threads like these that detract from an otherwise informative site. I know little about D.R. but I’ve read up on how he approaches grip and recoil control/mitigation and his technique appears to be solid. It relies less on grip-strength and friction against the sides of the gun and more on leverage against key points to resist recoil and muzzle flip. I view it as simply another option for approaching the fundamentals for shooting in a very non one-size-fits-all world.

It’s hard to ignore the success of the Modern Iso, thumbs-forward grip and technique as demonstrated by today’s top shooters but that doesn’t mean that another approach to solving the same problem can’t be evaluated to determine whether or not it adds value. The few shooters I’ve seen using D.R.’s approach seem to shoot very well.

[rodralig]

Thanks for the replies guys... Hhhmmm... One thing different between Pistol Forums and the other forum I'm registered with, some of you are ALREADY awake. Some, at least 3-hrs - this makes for plenty of responses to go through by the time I wake up here in the West Coast. *LOL*

Going back to the original post - I guess I opened a can of worms here... My intent was LESS of "Fist Fire" as a 'point shooting' technique; but MORE of how it approaches GRIP.

As I've mentioned, I'm still learning - hence, the interest/curiosity...

That said, I'm trying to see the contrast between the grip above with mine. I'm 6-ft tall, and the slim Asian built. When I initially gripped my Glock 22 - the 2nd knuckle of my middle finger is right smack in the middle of the trigger guard. What Fist Fire is saying is that, the width of the trigger guard should ideally be between the 1st and 2nd knuckle - to basically assist with 'natural alignment,' to simply put.

And of course, relegating recoil management to the Support Hand.

I've been practicing this Fist Fire grip for about a month or so now, but just hit me to ask about the Pros and Cons...

Thanks in advanced!

[JustOneGun]

Everyone seems to be an expert on FIST Fire. My exposure to it is almost nothing, watched a couple of DVDs, that's it. But I didn't get an impression that it was about point shooting. 'cause they, DR and his wife, pretty much used the sights whenever they could.




I have three different guns in my training area right now and setting up my grip using trigger guard and knuckles as landmarks gives three distinctly different grips. Statement of obvious, but pistol frames differ in fore-aft and side to side dimensions, grip shapes, and trigger reach. Then there's indefinite variability of shooters' hands. My personal priorities in how I grip the gun with my strong hand are

- as high on a gun as I can
- trigger finger position is optimal for pressing trigger straight back without disturbing the sights
- trigger finger position is optimal for pressing trigger straight back without disturbing the sights
- trigger finger position is optimal for pressing trigger straight back without disturbing the sights
- ability to reach all other necessary controls

If you watch the video the OP had it's explaining the grip with the idea to point shoot. He's a point shooter. Makes sense.

[jetfire]

Works well for me and anyone that actually gives it a shot. No pun intended. Most people that have taken my recoil mitigation block of instruction are pretty happy with the material. However, obviously your mileage varies.

I no longer get into discussions online regarding this topic due to comments like that, over 90% of the time when I ask the commenter if they have ever trained with me, Daniel Horner, Rick Simes, or even DR to educate themselves on the subject before forming a final opinion the answer is; No.

Rodralig, if you email me, (paul.sharp.mma@gmail.com), I'll do my best to help you via text but like all of this stuff it's best learned in person.

I can see value in FIST Fire as a recoil management technique, I guess I have issue with the whole point shooting thing more than anything. At this point I've encountered so many different ways people want to apply pressure to the gun that it's sort of a "hey, whatever works for you."

But the point shooting part is the part that hurts my friggin brain.

[Paul Sharp]

....It's that what you said leaves only one option, to pay you money in order to get the secret sauce.
"Point shooting and FIST Fire is hokey nonsense..." Caleb.

I guess the part where I posted my frikkin email address so he could ask me any questions on Fist Fire he'd like to ask and I'd do my best to answer..., without paying me, was missed by you?

[JustOneGun]

Thanks for the replies guys... Hhhmmm... One thing different between Pistol Forums and the other forum I'm registered with, some of you are ALREADY awake. Some, at least 3-hrs - this makes for plenty of responses to go through by the time I wake up here in the West Coast. *LOL*

Going back to the original post - I guess I opened a can of worms here... My intent was LESS of "Fist Fire" as a 'point shooting' technique; but MORE of how it approaches GRIP.

As I've mentioned, I'm still learning - hence, the interest/curiosity...

That said, I'm trying to see the contrast between the grip above with mine. I'm 6-ft tall, and the slim Asian built. When I initially gripped my Glock 22 - the 2nd knuckle of my middle finger is right smack in the middle of the trigger guard. What Fist Fire is saying is that, the width of the trigger guard should ideally be between the 1st and 2nd knuckle - to basically assist with 'natural alignment,' to simply put.

And of course, relegating recoil management to the Support Hand.

I've been practicing this Fist Fire grip for about a month or so now, but just hit me to ask about the Pros and Cons...

Thanks in advanced!

Hey not your fault. It's the internet. LOL. Many people call retention shooting, point shooting and many people have a financial interest in making money off of it. Between that there is an old argument that science has solved a long time ago. The true answer as most is somewhere in the middle.

As for grip, you will probably adjust that more than once. It's a very personal thing. If you can keep your primary hand on the pistol as you describe that will be fine. But it's not just a, "C" clamp on it. It's also a bit of pinch between the base of the thumb and base of the forefinger at the palm. Often new people are disturbing the pistol during the trigger press with this part of the hand. You might hear things like, "You need a gap between your trigger finger and the frame of the pistol in order to not push the frame sideways." I found that to be true for me and most people who are new shooters. But I have been shooting for decades. I put my finger in the trigger and pull the crap out of it. My grip even when poorly done due to a screw up is far better than it ever was as a new shooter.

The better reason to grip the pistol as you describe is to get the bones of the forearm in line with the pistol if you shoot it one handed. And it does help recoil to not have the pistol over gripped as described in the video. Once you get a fairly consistent grip, naturally pointing the pistol will be an easy calibration. Your hand and wrist have a lot of joints. Don't worry about natural point of aim with alignment. It doesn't work as he describes it in the video clip.

That's why I have the saying, "Just because (insert shooting celebrity here) can do it doesn't mean necessarily mean you should do it."

Certain things are easy to learn. Certain things take time and evolve.

I've always felt that a person's first paid training after a ccw permit is a private instructor who can triage their grip.

[MistWolf]

Getting the pistol to point naturally gets the sights into alignment quicker and back into alignment quicker under recoil.

This isn't to say I'm advocating any "grip system" over another. I don't know enough, or consider myself good enough to speak with any kind of expertise. I'm just saying that getting the pistol to point naturally seems to be a common goal of the knowledgeable folks I've been privileged to learn from

[YVK]

If you watch the video the OP had it's explaining the grip with the idea to point shoot. He's a point shooter. Makes sense.

The video that OP, all two minutes of it, is a part of some 90 minutes two disk DVD set that I have laying around somewhere. Unless you saw it all, you can't say if he's point shooter, sights shooter, rough visual reference shooter, target focus shooter, all of the above , can you?

You can grip a gun his way, other way, Weaver way , what have you way, and none of that will tell if the grip will define whether a shooter will choose to see his sights or ignore them. I don't fist fire but I can't see how you're making inferences about it on a basis of limited information.

[jetfire]

I think the name is really bothering me. I have a child's mind.

[Paul Sharp]

I think the name is really bothering me. I have a child's mind.

With you on that one. It was originally named by an Austrian dude that many on this forum would know. It doesn't translate into English well at all. My suggestion was to just use the German word or drop it. DRM liked it, so he kept it.