"Fist Fire" Grip...? Proper placement of the first 2-knuckles along the Trigger Guard

[rodralig]

Hi to ALL -

Novice shooter here...

Just heard about this Fist Fire system that somehow utilizes "point/index shooting."

Particularly I'm still learning/practicing the fundamentals - one thing that interests me is the grip. It seems that there is much emphasis on the trigger guard being positioned between the first two knuckles of the middle finger.

Any thoughts on this? Particularly those in regards to "undergrip" and "overgrip" having influence on the POI. (I have provided a clip below)

Thanks in advanced!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ibcc-Ap9M0

[Luke]

1. Do NOT waste anytime playing with point shooting. Please, for the love of all things good, use your sights.
2. Grip the gun in a manner that lets you place your trigger finger onto the trigger in a position that allows you to pull the trigger to the rear without disturbing your sights. Some people use a bunch of finger, some don't. I use just the tip.
3. Dry fire. Practice repeatedly getting the same, consistent grip, and draw, and over time you will build up a natural index with the gun, but you still use your sights.
4. There is more to grip than the hand holding the gun. Don't neglect the hand actually putting in the work.

[jetfire]

Point shooting and FIST Fire is hokey nonsense.

True story: if you learn to shoot well using your sights, you'll become good at point shooting just from practicing sighted fire. The reverse is not true.

[BJJ]

I believe Paul Sharp could shed some light on these issues. I am curious about the grip as well.

[Paul Sharp]

Point shooting and FIST Fire is hokey nonsense...

Works well for me and anyone that actually gives it a shot. No pun intended. Most people that have taken my recoil mitigation block of instruction are pretty happy with the material. However, obviously your mileage varies.

I no longer get into discussions online regarding this topic due to comments like that, over 90% of the time when I ask the commenter if they have ever trained with me, Daniel Horner, Rick Simes, or even DR to educate themselves on the subject before forming a final opinion the answer is; No.

Rodralig, if you email me, (paul.sharp.mma@gmail.com), I'll do my best to help you via text but like all of this stuff it's best learned in person.

[HopetonBrown]

I stay away from any branded (TM) shooting methods, whether they be Fist Fire, Center Axis Relock, Combat Focus Shooting or Israeli Tactical Point Shooting.

[JustOneGun]

Point shooting and FIST Fire is hokey nonsense.

True story: if you learn to shoot well using your sights, you'll become good at point shooting just from practicing sighted fire. The reverse is not true.

Not only is Caleb correct, but if you learn to point shoot first, usually too fast too soon with poor accuracy, your ability to use aimed fire is very difficult to learn subconsciously in the future. It's not just a bad habit. It's stuck in your subconscious brain as THE way to do it. It becomes what you will do under stress. Sort of a self fulfilling prophecy type of situation. The point shooting crowd had it almost correct. They just put it in the wrong order.

If an instructor has a fancy name for the grip, movement, way of doing anything I would be careful. I call it Warrior speak. It's marketing and often not good self-defense.

[JustOneGun]

To the OP:

Think of point shooting as trying to touch a light switch with your finger. You need to calibrate yourself. Using a smaller light switch (target) makes you more accurate. Using a smaller finger (front sight) makes you more accurate. As Caleb said, use the sights first. Point shooting just happens as a function of that calibration. You might first notice it when you start speeding up and the gun goes bang before you see your front sight. You might also note at that time that the bullet didn't go exactly where your eye wanted it to go. i.e. point shooting isn't that accurate.

And if you are going to say, "Fist Fire" then certainly you should put some gravel in your voice and say it like Sam Elliot. LOL.

FYI out of morbid curiosity I watched the video. IMO he completely misses the point of over griping as he calls it. The best reason not to do that is because the thumb is taking up the recoil. AS for pointing.... My pistol points where I have trained it to. I played around with his concept and guess what. No matter how I griped did the gun it went to where I was looking. Something about my body having a bunch of joints and my mind being able to quickly replicate it made getting an index on target fairly easy.

As a newbie: Consistent grip (no matter what that grip is) and practice means the front sight will be where you tell it to be. Work on a decent thumbs forward or stacked thumbs grip if using a semi auto. Then, unless you are extremely lucky, you will need to pay a competent instructor to watch you shoot and make a few suggestions on how to tweak your grip. Grip being the key to fast accurate shooting it might take a few tweaks to get really good at shooting.

[JustOneGun]

Works well for me and anyone that actually gives it a shot. No pun intended. Most people that have taken my recoil mitigation block of instruction are pretty happy with the material. However, obviously your mileage varies.

I no longer get into discussions online regarding this topic due to comments like that, over 90% of the time when I ask the commenter if they have ever trained with me, Daniel Horner, Rick Simes, or even DR to educate themselves on the subject before forming a final opinion the answer is; No.

Rodralig, if you email me, (paul.sharp.mma@gmail.com), I'll do my best to help you via text but like all of this stuff it's best learned in person.

Paul, It's not that you can't point shoot or that certain grips are better than others.

It's that what you said leaves only one option, to pay you money in order to get the secret sauce. I don't know you, so I'm not saying you can't help someone have a better grip or to point shoot. What I am definitely saying is that point shooting is substandard in accuracy, not any faster after the easy gains are made by a student and interferes in using the sight at a later date if taught first. And because point shooting is a by product of sighted fire whether flash front sight or whatever you want to call it, why would I want to learn it first?

You're right there's no need to discuss it. It's just proven to work better than point shooting. Point shooting just comes along for the ride. In that way,

"Point shooting and FIST Fire is hokey nonsense..." Caleb.

[YVK]

Everyone seems to be an expert on FIST Fire. My exposure to it is almost nothing, watched a couple of DVDs, that's it. But I didn't get an impression that it was about point shooting. 'cause they, DR and his wife, pretty much used the sights whenever they could.

It seems that there is much emphasis on the trigger guard being positioned between the first two knuckles of the middle finger.

Any thoughts on this? Particularly those in regards to "undergrip" and "overgrip" having influence on the POI. (I have provided a clip below)

I have three different guns in my training area right now and setting up my grip using trigger guard and knuckles as landmarks gives three distinctly different grips. Statement of obvious, but pistol frames differ in fore-aft and side to side dimensions, grip shapes, and trigger reach. Then there's indefinite variability of shooters' hands. My personal priorities in how I grip the gun with my strong hand are

- as high on a gun as I can
- trigger finger position is optimal for pressing trigger straight back without disturbing the sights
- trigger finger position is optimal for pressing trigger straight back without disturbing the sights
- trigger finger position is optimal for pressing trigger straight back without disturbing the sights
- ability to reach all other necessary controls