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Thread: ECQC

  1. #11
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    And as someone who has trained NUMEROUS times with both Craig and Tom and with Craig and Tom together (and as someone who has also been involved in a real life civilian entangled gun vs knife fight) I can tell you from my perspective that Tom absolutely does not minimize Craig's coursework. He simply tells you that more times than not that the resource predator using instrumental violence will usually produce a weapon as they approach before you are in touching distance. You will have most likely made several "early game" (MUC) mistakes if you end up in touching distance with unknown people who have produced a weapon...... unless you are at a gun show....

    As to process predators employing expressive violence (especially with knives) they may not produce the weapon until within a couple of arms length but there were likely clearly articulable cues that people simply failed to pick up on....or may have picked up on but failed to act upon until it was an entangled fight. The old "odds vs stakes" thing comes to mind....the odds may not be terribly high that you will end up in an entangled fight ....but the stakes do not get any higher. It is low frequency/EXTREMELY high danger. THAT is why ECQC skills are so critical (my opinion).

    Kind of like the old saying "if your gonna be stupid you'd better be tough"..... if you're going to not act on the cues of impending criminal assault until confirmation that an attack is under way then you better have some ECQC skills. But for most orderly people in their daily routine if they pick up on the cues and don't try to rationalize away what they are seeing and they act on the info being presented they are far less likely to end up in a clinch.

    There is no adversarial motive to what Tom is saying so people should not read any into what he is saying.
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 11-29-2016 at 03:37 PM.

  2. #12
    Being a past student in ECQC I have much respect for Craig's teachings and have a thirst for more, I would also like to suggest another valuable resource in helping to recognize pre-assault / threat determination clues is the book "Left of Bang" by Patrick Van Horne & Jason A. Riley.

  3. #13
    Thank you for all the responses. They have given me a lot to think about. There's a lot of very knowledgable folks on this forum.

    I usually opt to carry an enclosed hammer J-frame since my perspective has always been that most civilian self-defense encounters involve very few shots fired, will take place at extremely close distances and the snub has some advantages in ECQC. I guess I'm starting to question my thinking and choice.

    I did find this... https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....rames-amp-ECQC, but would appreciate any more opinions and insights anyone is willing to offer regarding choosing to carry a J-Frame vs a semi-auto due to reasons relating to ECQC.

  4. #14
    Member Dropkick's Avatar
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    Northern VA
    It takes training, technique, skill, and stress inculcation, to get to the point where the J-Frame vs. Semi-Auto debate even matters.

  5. #15
    I can shoot a J-Frame pretty well, and I'd still recommend a Glock 42 over a j-frame.


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  6. #16
    I'm sure an auto is better aiming/shooting/reloading than a J, but ill give you my reasoning for carrying it vs:

    -I can get a more secure one handed grip on it than it's equivalent sized semi auto.
    -It's limp wrist resistant.
    -In my holster choice, I can get a quicker draw on it.
    -It promotes more dry fire for me than a semi-auto.
    -My wife feels more comfortable with it.
    -It's more comfortable for me to carry, which means ill carry it more.
    -I don't live in a shitty area.
    -and I think they are just cool
    -**I feel more comfy carrying it AWIB.
    Last edited by Isaac; 11-30-2016 at 05:34 PM. Reason: **

  7. #17
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    Tennessee
    A J frame is fine ...until it isn't.

    I'm not saying a J frame won't work. Far from it.... there are graveyards full of dead people shot once or twice with a .38 special. I'm just saying I personally prefer to have more ammo than just 5 on tap even if the BG is just one tweaker with a rusty screwdriver......... because math never takes the day off .

    Add in the possibility (or probability?) of multiple assailants and the J frame starts to look very limited in the problems it is good at solving.

    Add in the possibility (probability?) of you also being injured in the exchange and now guns that need to be reloaded less often start to look even more enticing.

    And if the problem is more than 15 yards away then the J is simply harder to shoot with pinpoint accuracy than a lot of other guns.

    Add in the fact that 1 handed reloads (especially 1 handed weak handed reloads) really suck (and even more so with a revolver) and suddenly I'm preferring the biggest highest capacity pistol I can reasonably carry. But that is an individual choice made for the reasons laid out .... But I'm not saying everyone else needs to make the same decision...

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dropkick View Post
    It takes training, technique, skill, and stress inculcation, to get to the point where the J-Frame vs. Semi-Auto debate even matters.
    Dropkick speaks the truth.

    Almost every single person I have seen call out for a snubby after their ECQC experience had a miserable performance. They did not "almost" make it through or "almost" win a particular evo; they were crushed beyond all measure. The snubby would have done almost no good.

    I get it - it is easier and quicker to go for a gear solution. Actually training takes time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears, and involves a great deal of ego crushing. Who wants to do that if money can fix it quicker?

    Is there a window where a snub revolver is really good? Sure. IF YOU HAVE THE SKILL SET. And by skill set, I am not just talking about the skill to run a revolver well. I am taking about the ability to manage a close range, bad breath encounter. A gun - any kind of gun - is only a small part of that puzzle.

    The single biggest reason semi-autos get fouled in ECQC is because the user introduced the gun at the wrong time, or unthinkingly thrust the gun towards the bad guy where the BG easily grabbed it. If you don't do that, you can bring a full size 1911 with a compensator and suppressor into the fight without it getting fouled. If you do do those things, even a j-frame is going to get, if not fouled, at least grabbed.

    The point being that it is better to work the software until such time as the hardware may really be able to used to it's fullest efficacy.
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  9. #19
    With a compensator and a suppressor. The Cecil Special. :-)

    Seriously though, I certainly agree with what Cecil said. having said that, I think Issac laid out good reasons FOR HIM. Ideal? Probably not, but at least he's thought it out.

  10. #20
    Delta Busta Kappa fratboy Hot Sauce's Avatar
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    Oct 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    The single biggest reason semi-autos get fouled in ECQC is because the user introduced the gun at the wrong time
    While I've seen less evos first hand than Cecil, no doubt, this point rings true from what I saw as well. As someone highlighted in another thread, "poor timing decision" is Craig's oft repeated and understated phrase that you will hear.
    Last edited by Hot Sauce; 11-30-2016 at 08:17 PM.
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