New IDPA Rules

[NEPAKevin]

"If" the match director wants to make the CoFs PCP friendly, it would be no harder than making matches revolver friendly. However, we tried running long guns and hand guns concurrently and the real snag is in administration and range etiquette. Until the SOs and shooters become as comfortable with the dance of running long guns as they are with handguns, it can really screw the pooch in regards to match flow.

[jetfire]

There are other factors beyond shooting skill alone. The types of stages are different, such as tactical priority, cover, required movement, typically more non-threats. The brain/nervous responses will be different. In IDPA you have to be more careful about the stage rules. In USPSA you don't think about those...or shouldn't. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a great USPSA shooter shoot IDPA and totally blow the stage, and even forget targets. If you want to measure raw pistol handling skills, then USPSA is your game. If you want to measure use of cover, tactical priority, and moving while shooting, then IDPA tests those skills more.
Cody

I love IDPA. I have worked for IDPA, and was on a Tiger Team (I have the coin somewhere). However, this statement drives me up the walls. Use of cover in IDPA is a joke compared to real world utilization of cover, and furthermore I've had to make far more difficult shots in terms of body position in USPSA matches than IDPA's "cover" has ever forced me to.

Required movement? Most IDPA stages that do require movement ask for only a paltry amount compared to what you do in a USPSA stage, and I've done waaaaaaaaaaay more shooting on the move at USPSA matches than I've ever done in IDPA matches. IDPA's use of concealment is just as big a joke when you can buy a pre-stiffened "concealment" vest from Armadillo concealment (I have one and it's great for the game).

Lastly, I've shot a ton of IDPA matches, and the only places I've seen legit GMs compete is at Nationals, where they're all competing against each other. And the only time I've ever seen a legit GM "blow" a stage was when they were getting hammered with ticky-tack penalities by some MM SO who low-key hates the GM for being good at shooting.

[orionz06]

Happy Thanksgiving to you too, Orion.
Cody

You too!

I love IDPA.

But do you kneel and pray towards Berryville five times a day?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cclaxton]

Yeah, so they've said to me too. At this point, I'll believe it when I see the new DMG rule book...
Really? I can think of a bunch of stages that I've shot in matches that would be difficult to downright impossible with a carbine. There are of course the classic carry the baby, evacuate your wounded buddy, carry a briefcase stages... One I particularly liked had a spring-loaded target stand with two targets, with a cable connected to a briefcase. You had to pull the briefcase to you against spring tension to lift the targets visible, draw and shoot one-handed. Really neat and quick little stage!

There is no argument that PCC shooters will need to shoot stages differently. While the stage may not work the same for PCC shooters as pistol shooters, it can be made the same for all PCC shooters. I design 12-14 stages a month and it just adds another stage design element.

[cclaxton]

I love IDPA. I have worked for IDPA, and was on a Tiger Team (I have the coin somewhere). However, this statement drives me up the walls. Use of cover in IDPA is a joke compared to real world utilization of cover, and furthermore I've had to make far more difficult shots in terms of body position in USPSA matches than IDPA's "cover" has ever forced me to. Required movement? Most IDPA stages that do require movement ask for only a paltry amount compared to what you do in a USPSA stage, and I've done waaaaaaaaaaay more shooting on the move at USPSA matches than I've ever done in IDPA matches. IDPA's use of concealment is just as big a joke when you can buy a pre-stiffened "concealment" vest from Armadillo concealment (I have one and it's great for the game).
Lastly, I've shot a ton of IDPA matches, and the only places I've seen legit GMs compete is at Nationals, where they're all competing against each other. And the only time I've ever seen a legit GM "blow" a stage was when they were getting hammered with ticky-tack penalities by some MM SO who low-key hates the GM for being good at shooting.

I saw 3 GM's at my WV match, two at the Maryland State IDPA Match, among others. Convenient locations may be a big factor. I think there were at least 3 at Virginia State. But that is not important to my argument.
Everything is relative and needs to be taken in context. There is no doubt that cover in IDPA is way too loose compared to real use of cover. But, as I said before, this is the only time the vast majority of shooters get practice even using cover or priority. I would say 70-80% of IDPA club shooters will practice a few times a week, and then come to an IDPA match. They own inexpensive guns, and shoot factory or commercially reloaded ammo. Over time they get dramatically better at safety, pistol skills, must use cover (even if very basic and liberal), priority, engaging disappearing targets, learn to shoot while moving, and do it under the time pressure of competition. Over time they become MUCH BETTER, and that makes them better on the streets when they conceal carry. Some will take tactical classes and learn better tactics. Most will not. I try to do what I can to challenge them to improve use of cover through stage design and hard cover. I try to challenge people with awkward shooting positions, such as prone, around a tree trunk, twisted around a bicycle, side-stepping, etc. I would like to see them allow for more movement in IDPA. The new rules expanded it from 15 yards to 20 yards, but to me that is still not enough.

I see most IDPA shooters learn new skills over time. First, they learn to keep their feet behind cover. Then they learn to place their lead foot in a safe position quickly. Then they learn to lean out JUST ENOUGH to get the shot, because it saves time and movement. While these are not the high level of skills that SWAT teams and combat people would use, they are much better than nothing. Don't forget the audience. The audience for IDPA is different than the audience for USPSA and the audience for those training for VIP Protection.
Cody

[DAB]

yup.

when i started shooting IDPA about 3 years ago, i thought i was a good shot. nope. not with the clock ticking, feet moving, behind cover.....

i'm way better now than i was then, even won a stage last week. woot.

i have no dreams of winning a sanctioned match, but i do it for fun, for building confidence, and improving proficiency.

[JAD]

This last weekend, we had a stage where you had to carry an attache case and had to negotiate the stage with it. The 'case' was heavy and most folks shot it one handed. It would have not been possible with a carbine.

O ye of little faith...

I suck with a carbine, and I know for a fact I can manage IDPA distances reasonably well with one hand free and a lightweight AR.

Doesn't mean its a good idea, but it's worth practicing.

[jetfire]

I saw 3 GM's at my WV match, two at the Maryland State IDPA Match, among others. Convenient locations may be a big factor. I think there were at least 3 at Virginia State. But that is not important to my argument.
Everything is relative and needs to be taken in context. There is no doubt that cover in IDPA is way too loose compared to real use of cover. But, as I said before, this is the only time the vast majority of shooters get practice even using cover or priority. I would say 70-80% of IDPA club shooters will practice a few times a week, and then come to an IDPA match. They own inexpensive guns, and shoot factory or commercially reloaded ammo. Over time they get dramatically better at safety, pistol skills, must use cover (even if very basic and liberal), priority, engaging disappearing targets, learn to shoot while moving, and do it under the time pressure of competition. Over time they become MUCH BETTER, and that makes them better on the streets when they conceal carry. Some will take tactical classes and learn better tactics. Most will not. I try to do what I can to challenge them to improve use of cover through stage design and hard cover. I try to challenge people with awkward shooting positions, such as prone, around a tree trunk, twisted around a bicycle, side-stepping, etc. I would like to see them allow for more movement in IDPA. The new rules expanded it from 15 yards to 20 yards, but to me that is still not enough.

I see most IDPA shooters learn new skills over time. First, they learn to keep their feet behind cover. Then they learn to place their lead foot in a safe position quickly. Then they learn to lean out JUST ENOUGH to get the shot, because it saves time and movement. While these are not the high level of skills that SWAT teams and combat people would use, they are much better than nothing. Don't forget the audience. The audience for IDPA is different than the audience for USPSA and the audience for those training for VIP Protection.
Cody

/inner monologue: why am I doing this to myself

Okay, I am not saying IDPA is bad or anything like that. But to claim that it's somehow "better" than USPSA for defensive shooting is just nonsense. Yes, there is cover. There is also "cover" in USPSA matches, they just call it "fault lines behind walls" instead. You do stuff in both sports that is wildly unsound as defensive tactics, but because IDPA forces people to wear dopey vests that they'd never wear on the streets and makes people use some arbitrary definition of cover, people think it's more tactical or something.

I don't care what people shoot. I really don't. I want people to get better at shooting, and both IDPA and USPSA will make you better at shooting, especially if you're some Joe CCW dude. Keeping your feet behind an arbitrary cover line is probably way less useful in a self-defense content than being able to shoot a sub 3 second bill drill at 15 yards.

[cclaxton]

/inner monologue: why am I doing this to myself

Okay, I am not saying IDPA is bad or anything like that. But to claim that it's somehow "better" than USPSA for defensive shooting is just nonsense. Yes, there is cover. There is also "cover" in USPSA matches, they just call it "fault lines behind walls" instead. You do stuff in both sports that is wildly unsound as defensive tactics, but because IDPA forces people to wear dopey vests that they'd never wear on the streets and makes people use some arbitrary definition of cover, people think it's more tactical or something.

I don't care what people shoot. I really don't. I want people to get better at shooting, and both IDPA and USPSA will make you better at shooting, especially if you're some Joe CCW dude. Keeping your feet behind an arbitrary cover line is probably way less useful in a self-defense content than being able to shoot a sub 3 second bill drill at 15 yards.

The way to win a gunfight is to NOT GET SHOT!

I think tactics and cover are more important than a sub 3s bill drill. But even more important than that are situational tactics. As I have progressed in Krav, I have learned way more in managing distance and tactical decision making in self-defense than I have learned anywhere else in shooting classes. A gun is not going to stop a guy from stabbing you when he starts 2 yards away, or closer. A gun makes no sense in that situation. What does make sense is to attack the attack and stop the blade. What about someone coming up from behind you and putting a pistol in your back? Is a 3s bill drill gonna save you?...NO. Knowing how to deflect the muzzle and neutralize the attack certainly does. The main point I am making here is that self-defense is DEFENSIVE, and focusing too much on the gun skills as a solution means people will use the tool they have to their detriment. If you don't have pepper spray, and you have a gun, what will you use? Don't get me wrong...fast gun skills are important...at the proper distance.

But staying behind cover, and knowing how to conceal your location by keeping your feet behind cover can save your life. And, I think winning a gun fight is not about getting the bad guy...it's about not getting shot.
Cody

[jetfire]

Fuck this, I'm out.