"You should run!"

[Robinson]

At 54 years old with some injuries that made me give up running several months ago I am no longer in good enough running condition to outrun a group of younger attackers. Also, I have good hand to hand skills but facing multiple determined attackers is extremely difficult even for someone who is skilled. In a case like the one shown above if unarmed I would probably be faced with a decision to either curl up in a ball on the ground and try to avoid sustaining a fatal injury or simply go out fighting. I think I would be more inclined to fight to my last breath. If armed, I think using the weapon would be justifiable. Against a bunch of people the effectiveness of an armed response would depend on how focused the response is and how the crowd reacts to it. I don't think there's an easy way out of a situation like that.

[JustOneGun]

My opinion is, there is a time and place to run, comply and fight. But running when being robbed at gunpoint puts the fact of your life and death in the hands of the bad guy. Running when a mob is able to out run you only buys you time, not escape. Out running bullets is pretty hard. Of course we are not limited in our choices unless we artificially limit them. We can run, pepper spray a crowd, individual, hand to hand fight, knife fight and shoot them as necessary and appropriate.

The real problem in saying to oneself, "I don't need a gun. I'll just run" or "I'll just give them the money" limits a person's choices. It's not an either/or decision.

[scw2]

Was that a video of a Hate Crime in progress?

For the purposes of collecting statistics, the FBI has defined a hate crime as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity, gender, or gender identity.”

[BaiHu]

What could you have done in a scenario like VDM posted?

I talk about this a fair amount in my classes and running is no different than any other tool. It's only useful if practiced, used efficiently (ya never know how long/hard you'll need to run) and at the right time/place.

Being in NJ, running has more complications, b/c no one but the bad guys can carry guns and few people carry any self-defense hardware.

Here are some things I consider, which may be more helpful than "an answer".

1. Conditioning: As noted, who is with you and what condition are you and them in? Children? Spouse? Elderly/infirm family member?
2. Location: Where are you (Woods, urban, suburban, vacation spot? Do you know where to run to? Police station? Crowded mall? Will you thin the herd or collect more?
3. Obstacles: Sprinting towards obstacles may improve your odds if you're alone, but what if that's your default and now you're separated from your child, spouse, etc? What if your temporary obstacle becomes a dead end?
4. Dress/EDC: More importantly, how do you dress normally? Do you always have on sneakers, loose fitting jeans and a few layers that can pad against attack or be peeled like layers of an onion to escape grabs? Do you carry mace, knife, gun? Do you have any unarmed skills?
5. Legal: Since you can only carry a knife and mace in NJ, unless you're dealing with a few unmotivated attackers, standing your ground is not ideal as you're more likely to get swarmed. I think a slash/spray and scoot mentality is the better way to go and let's not forget how #1 & 2 might come into play.

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[JAD]

What could you have done in a scenario like VDM posted?

Regretted the self-limited capacity of my firearm.

Srs, I would think I would want to run to try to thin the attackers into a line, if I could keep my feet; get some cover to work with; and make crossing that barrier hurt.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

On the other hand, when chaos reigns - leaving is not a bad idea. In the Luby's massacre, two elderly women fled at their slow but steady pace and lived. Of course, you can come up with a scenario where you can't flee and have to go all David Crockett at the Alamo against the mob.

[GardoneVT]

I like this type of conversation, specifically because there is a time and place to run....to cover, to safety, because your gun isn't doing what you want or because you just out of weapons/ammo/time.



The above video depicts, more or less, the worst case scenario if you are by your self. You are walking to your vehicle and realize you are waist deep in a BLM/anti-white person protest. He tried to run, there is no running. But standing and (fist fighting) isn't going to work either, so what should he do? Well he did exactly what would have happened regardless of him running or fighting, he was not prepared for that situation and he paid for it in his own blood (though I think he lived...?). In this type of mass attack situation, running is very much a good tactic, but only because you want to thin out the aggressors. On top of that you want to be able to prove you did everything in your power to escape instead of using force on a large group of people. Though, it may have been justified immediately after the first several volleys of attacks - no one can reasonably be expected to (fist) fight against numerous (possibly armed) attackers. Running will get you out of the big groups attack/sights and will let you face off with several persons. At that point you are with your back to a wall and any reasonable amount of force required to meet and overcome the force you are presented with can (and should) be used.

Say this guy was armed, Glock 19, extra mag, a little blade. He manages to fend off one or two by parrying and striking, he's skilled at unarmed combat. Then four or five of these urban youth decide its time to go big and half a dozen start to attack him at once. Would deadly force be reasonable? At what point? The moment you are grabbed from every side? The moment you hit the ground? The moment you get kicked in the face? At what point is standing your ground completely reasonable and, not only necessary, but required for your survival? Do you have the tools to overcome this type of fast moving/developing situation? Would running away be an option here even if you were Usain Bolt?

There's some problems with that video.

They're in a garage. Garages carry noise. If I heard a mob of people walking around a parking garage causing trouble I'd take a cab or kill 45 minutes until the crowd passed.

When it comes to deadly threats, an ounce of prevention really does offset a pound of cure. Yes I suppose there's a situation where Scotty could suffer a transporter glitch and accidentally beam a mob of jagoffs right on top of you with zero warning, but in most realistic cases there's some subtle warnings that Trouble Is Afoot. We should heed them.

Case in point. I drove my Camaro to a gas station once. Parked up and fueled the car. As the pump clicked away a clapped out Chrysler Pacifica rolls up to the convenience mart containing two sour looking black guys and a white chick with " cosmetic issues".

Driver gets out. Starts walking straight to my car. At this point I shift position to stand with my back to the pump facing Mr Chrysler and keep my hand real close to the waist.

"Hey bro, NICE CAR. I ain't seen T-tops in a minute. This ride clean yo!"

Dude walks right up to the passenger side of my Camaro and bends his head to look into the car. Which is easy, as the windows are down and the tops are off. I look at the Chrysler - yup, still the same two people in the car. No accomplice to this drama-yet.

The driver quips about my car still having the stock rims. I shrug, take the pump out with my left hand, and close the gas filler. Dude walks back to the Pacifica with a quickness- and I made sure to square the block after leaving the gas station before rejoining the main stream of traffic.

Guy could very well have been just a gearhead asking about a car he admired.

Or he was casing me for a carjacking and decided he'd be better off getting a Z28 on Craigslist. Preventing the disaster with good situational awareness beats 15+1 rounds of "cure" and the attendant legal reaction.

[Cypher]

I live in a sketchy neighborhood so I occasionally have run ins with the local tweakers. No one has actually tried to rob me yet but I think a couple were considering it.

My experience has been that letting them know I see them coming and making it very clear that I am prepared to fight has been a great deterrent. I had a pair a couple weeks ago that took off as soon as they saw me empty my hands and back up against a car.

As for the running thing, I would try to avoid and get away if possible but at my age I'm not going to out run a 20 something tweaker and as I mentioned elsewhere my wife is disabled. She can barely walk she's certainly not going to be able to run or even effectively retreat. So if she's involved I'm out of options, I'm going to stand and fight.

[Luke]

Since gardone had used the stereotypical dialect and broken the ice of "I'm not trying to sound racist.."

In my mind running ain't gonna work for this dude. As a fellow whitey, your just not gonna outrun some young African American dudes..

[Mirolynmonbro]

Running could work for me, but 99% of the time I am with my girlfriend, and she has a weird knee issue. Running is out of question for her when we're at the gym because of the pain it causes. I don't think running would be a good option if we were together and faced with a similar situation in voodoo's video