Competition gets you killed on the streets.

[voodoo_man]

Does either side of this debate ever read the thousands of examples compiled by the NRA on defensive gun use by private citizens? Because every month there are any number of accounts that all but dismiss any concerns about Mindset, or how to effectively run a firearm beyond which end to point at the bad guy.

Once Claude Werner got that point through my thick skull I began to consider any discussion on the matter to be little more than an interesting intellectual exercise. The guys that think Mindset is the precious will continue to argue with the guys that think skill is the Golden Fleece.... meanwhile granny with zero training and a Ruger 22 just sent some burglar hauling ass out her back door when she cracked a round off over his head. Hell man, a few years ago my grandmother came home from bowling league to find some guy rummaging through her things. She grabbed her single shot 410, (that she used to scare geese off her yard), from behind the garage door and pointed it at the guy. He begged her to not shoot him and then jumped through the window he had crawled through to make entry. The gun wasn't even loaded. I'm still not sure what mindset lecture she attended or shotgun course she took from the latest-greatest 3gunner but whatever it was, it worked.

I train because I love it, it's something I've done everyday for as long as I can remember. Competition is the only venue I have where can get a little bit of that rush without doing time. Some dude I don't know doesn't dig it? Cool bro, you do you and I'm gonna do me.


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Not going to speak ill of your family and am happy that she was unharmed.

Fact remains that there have been more people killed, especially good guys because of lacking the proper mindset.

If this was all none sense, there wouldn't be books on top of books, FBI LE lectures which are sold out all the time and seminars for highspeed gov/mil personnel taught logic and mindset.

In my experience those who disregard mindset either haven't been tested to the point of needing to up their game to survive or simply ignorant of the information either due to not having it properly taught to them or not having the understanding of the context.

Now of this is not a indictment of those who lack it, it is simply a fact of reality. By the way, none of the above you can get from competition, in no way, shape or form.

As I've stated before, if a person needs to learn gun handling, shooting accurately or otherwise gain "gun in hand" experience on the range competition is good for that. Is it the only way? No. Is it that best way? Depends on what you do for a living and what your point for having/carrying a gun is.

[Hambo]

Just off the top of my head, Jim Cirillo, Pat McNamara, Vince O'Neill, and Frank Proctor come to mind as "tactical" guys who strongly advocate shooting competition.

Kyle Lamb used to run his own three gun match that had everybody from pros to guys from his unit. The make or break stages didn't require great shooting skills, they demanded the shooter engage his or her brain to avoid epic failure.

[karmapolice]

Once more unto the breach, dear friends once more: or close up the walls with our gamers dead.

This topic has been covered ad nauseam, but I’m going to throw my 25 .cent opinion into it anyway. For reference for those who do not know me I’ve spent the last 5+ years of my adult life (Post College) as a peace officer. The first two and half years of that time were with the largest municipal agency in the State of Georgia. There I was a morning watch patrol Officer assigned with a permanent beat. That beat is in the area known as Vine City and constantly places as one of the top violent places within American cities. I left that agency to work for my current agency, which is a Sheriff’s Office of a smaller population county. However it is a very unique county with a good mix of urban/commercial, suburban, and rural districts. You can go from a multi million dollar home to a single wide trailer with particle board laid over holes in the floors. That is the foundation for my professional experience when it comes to carrying a pistol for a living. It doesn’t cover all my experience in doing the job but will at least give some insight.

As far as my competition and or training experience, I cut my teeth with pistol shooting at the age of 18 by shooting weekly local USPSA matches. This was the only way I could shoot at a private/business range because most required you to be 21 years old. It is here I was befriended by some very skilled shooters (Erik Lund, Rob Romero, and others). I mention their names not for my benefit but again to ad context and those two names most should recognize. The other point is one is a long time peace officer and the other has never been in the law enforcement but they are both high level shooters *USPSA Grand Masters. To go on I’ve taken shooting classes from Tom Givens (Unthinkable with Dr. William April), Larry Vickers (Basic Carbine and Advanced Handgun), Frank Proctor (Private Performance Pistol Class), Talon Defense (Vehicle gun fighter courses and Injured Shooter), and more. So the foundation of my pistol shooting skills and experience was formed with competition. I did not grow up shooting and or with military/LE parents. I have an uncle that hunts and is a “gun guy” but other than that and the Boy Scouts there was no other influence, it was something I picked up and wanted to do myself.

With all that out there let me try to broach this topic as it is an important one to me and many. As far as voodoo’s mindset argument, yes mindset is very important that being said it isn’t the only thing. To expand more let me make this argument, how does one measure mindset? Let’s say you do some tactical training and take some good mindset courses such as Dr. William April, Claude Werner, or other known great teachers. There is no standard to measure ones mindset that we can place within a scale, meaning you could have a great mindset or just think you do. Also mindset is one of those things that is very independent of the individual and their character, situation, etc. Whereas a firearms competition can measure your ability to perform with a set standard and scale, the same goes for timers which are one of the tools used in competition. The clock, hits on targets, etc do not lie and are a measurable standard one can use to compare themselves to others and set goals to improve themselves as a shooter.

To me someone with a solid mindset is going to seek a way to measure their shooting performance that has tangible/realistic standards not just how they feel they shoot. You may think you are lighting fast out of the holster but until you can time yourself you are just guessing. As Paul Sharp said in his post, competition is one of the only legal means one can do some of these courses of fires and one of the only times where ranges will allow such things as drawing from a holster etc. For most civilians this is the only opportunity they have to do such things as they are not made to train and or given training opportunities that most le/mil take for granted. Also another good example of individuals that receive mindset training and our presented with situation that should sharpen and or cause a desire for more understanding and skills is Peace Officers. Yet there are far too many that are sub par shooters and or have really shitty mindset by choice. Some of those is not most are in denial about that and do not push themselves and or place themselves in situations that would bring that to light, such as competition shooting.

Gabe White has hit the nail on the head multiple times about how to be what would be referred to an all around squared defense oriented person. “Competition isn't suitable as the SOLE method of preparation for self-defense, and neither is any other type of training or activity. You have to use multiple methods of preparation to shore up the different weaknesses that ALL of them have, including well-conducted tactical training. And competition can provide some very powerful benefits that are hard to get elsewhere.” – Mr. White. I don’t think it can be said in a clearer and or better way.

Another source to look at is all the badass shooters that are tactically sound and experienced such as Tom Givens, Proctor, etc. One of these individuals is our own, Surf and how he put this is also my experience. “To this day, I will firmly preach that a high level tactical shooter, who competes at high levels in the competition world, is truly the guy that you don't want to face off with when you are playing for blood. /docholiday.”- Surf. All of these guys preach the same message, maybe different words or slightly different ways but in the end the message is overall the same.

I look at it as a never ending quest and want to have all the experience and advantage I can get within righteous means. So far it hasn’t let me down and I will always be on this quest as long as I draw breath and walk this Earth and or any other.

[GJM]

The technical skills vs mindset argument in defensive shooting is very analogous to the pilot judgment vs technical flying skills argument in aviation. It is set-up as which do you want, when the answer is both.

[orionz06]

Just off the top of my head, Jim Cirillo, Pat McNamara, Vince O'Neill, and Frank Proctor come to mind as "tactical" guys who strongly advocate shooting competition.

Better to be lucky than good.
[/sarcasm]


I love the fact that folks still get added up over competition when they still compete one way or another anyway.


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[SLG]

Better to be lucky than good.
[/sarcasm]

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Total thread drift, as the topic of this thread simply bores me to tears.

Also, if you don't like discussions of language, don't read further.

I think it is always better to be lucky than good, pretty much by definition. If you were/are lucky, then you won. Period. If you are good, maybe you won, or maybe you lost to the lucky guy.

The problem is, you can't count on luck (or being good, really), but we have more ability to control and influence "good", so that is what we strive for. If I could reasonably be assured of being lucky all the time, I might spend my training time just eating grapes on a sofa. Nah, probably not.

Even though we can't guarantee "good", it does seem that guys that are good tend to win all out of proportion. I'll take those odds, thank you very much. :-)

[orionz06]

Total thread drift, as the topic of this thread simply bores me to tears.

Also, if you don't like discussions of language, don't read further.

I think it is always better to be lucky than good, pretty much by definition. If you were/are lucky, then you won. Period. If you are good, maybe you won, or maybe you lost to the lucky guy.

The problem is, you can't count on luck (or being good, really), but we have more ability to control and influence "good", so that is what we strive for. If I could reasonably be assured of being lucky all the time, I might spend my training time just eating grapes on a sofa. Nah, probably not.

Even though we can't guarantee "good", it does seem that guys that are good tend to win all out of proportion. I'll take those odds, thank you very much. :-)

There's a pretty elegant quote floating around about just that. If I can dig around on a PC rather than deal with security at work to get into the building I'll see if I can dig it up.


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[DAB]

i view competition matches as monthly pop quizzes. they test where my skills are that day, both compared to what i think they should be and compared to the peer group that shows up (pretty stable group). i started at the bottom of the crowd, and i'm working toward the top of the crowd. i'd say that's improvement.

it's not practice (i do that on my own time), it's not organized training. it's fun and it's challenging.

[Cory]

It seems to me that this has become a mindset vs technical skill discussion. Would most of you agree that competition is actually building skill, not just routine? The article claims "muscle memory" can get you killed because you arent thinking, and I feel like autonomic ability will help you free up your brain to process other things and be a benefit. Thoughts?

-Cory

[orionz06]

It seems to me that this has become a mindset vs technical skill discussion. Would most of you agree that competition is actually building skill, not just routine? The article claims "muscle memory" can get you killed because you arent thinking, and I feel like autonomic ability will help you free up your brain to process other things and be a benefit. Thoughts?

-Cory

I think that's close to what's happening. The folks who shit all over games think that the gamers are only shooting games and games are the only way to improve. The folks who use games to improve their technical skills either recognize that they're just games and only a portion of a well rounded self defensive shooters body of preparation work. If it's not that then there are those who just shoot games to shoot games and that's all they care to do. Sometimes they carry, sometimes they don't.

You can only get out what you put in.


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