Competition gets you killed on the streets.

[Mr_White]

I know.....these threads are like an addiction. I know I should not read them....and do. I know I should not post.....and still do.

You try to have a rational conversation though, so that is a plus.

I knew I was headed down a bad road when I was running from a "cover" position with an empty gun...that I knew was empty...to reload in the open while on my way to where I knew more "bad guys" were. Humping cover and gaming cover. Actually sitting there counting in my head rounds and places to time my reloads to have one round in the gun. Being okay with bolstering an unloaded gun after shooting. All sorts of administrative handling not based on any sort of actual safety. All sorts of tactical handling not based on any sort of actual tactical gun handling.

Later I tried shooting matches "tactically correct". Boy was this a total disaster. Everyone was basically mad at me, or wanted to lecture me about how I did it wrong. I always found it humorous that I was being lectured by tow truck drivers and a plumber about room clearing and hostage rescue......being I spent my entire adult life actually doing that and training others to as my actual profession. Looking back, I was in the wrong for doing this. Their match, their rules. I was able to find a very cool group for awhile that shot "tactical matches" that were exceptionally good. Of course they were very subjective and you could actually "win" by being better at explaining how you handled a problem to the group than by what your time was. Time and scoring were "guides" and more of a factor than anything else.

At this point I simply stay off competive forums and topics. Not my game, and when I do go to a match I usually shoot a revolver these days. Simple for me. Match Mindset, Match Marksmanship, Match Gun Handling & Tactics. These are very different than Combat Mindset, Combat Marksmanship, and Combat Gun Handling and Tactics. Also, living an armed lifestyle requires its own set of Mindset and Gun Handling stuff. You cannot mix them. Some people are exceptionally good at mentally compartmentalizing these things. Others, myself included, are not. I can at least admit I cannot.....so I have self identified the juice was not worth the squeeze when it came to "sport shooting". I still incorporate a lot of "competition" into what I do. You should be competing every time you shoot. What we are competing against is the big difference.

Also, for those who say that people against sport shooting are because the suck can keep believing that. There was a time with young eyes, young reflexes, and an unlimited amount of ammo and range time where I was winning a lot of trophy's at local matches. Part of the problem was I was getting more consumed with winning matches than winning fights. I will say my favorite stuff is man on man falling steel. It is pure fundamentals, actually knowing how fast you can be accurate, and all shooting and no fantasy tactics. When I go to a match Hess days.....falling steel with a revolver.

DB, I appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective and I think many other people here do too.

As a tactical guy trying to benefit from competitive shooting (USPSA in particular), here's how I organize it, and this is personal preference on my part:

Use as close to unified gear as I can. Ammo and the recoil spring are about the only gear that's not unified for me. Shoot whatever Division that gear is allowed in. Of the available options, I choose Limited.

Try to win the game. This is big IMHO. Yeah, I get that it flushes tactics because time will be a very important factor in overall score, but without trying to win the game, the chief power of the competition itself - honestly trying to beat the highly skilled opponents, is lost.

I do a big 'hard break' at the end of each stage and consciously decide that I'm done, then do the unload-show-clear. I've seen people in both competition and tactical training get bit by relaxing too soon and speed-dismounting the gun and exiting the firing process before they had actually completed the task at hand.

To me, the biggest benefits of competitive shooting are the honest competition itself, and the stressful testing it provides of on-demand performance with the most relevant-to-me possible equipment, against a wide variety of targets and target presentations, through a wide range of physical movement, barriers, and positioning.

To counter un-tactical elements of competitive shooting, I engage in tactical training - live, dry, scenario, FOF - focused on many things, including:

Decisionmaking (carrying out the priorities of self-defense, starting with avoidance and ending with neutralization)

Threat ID and assessment

Managing muzzle in proximity to non-threats

Subtleties of trigger management, like rescinding an in-progress trigger press

Misdirective tactics

Post-shooting procedure (follow-through on downed threat, 360 scan, reloading, verbalization, etc.)

Active use of barriers that is relevant to living, maneuvering, aggressing adversaries

Reactive and proactive positional shooting

Single handed use of the pistol (in addition to shooting, true SHO and WHO draws, reloads, and malfunction clearance)

Low light, with and without the aid of a flashlight

Exertion drills

Anatomically-correct reactive targets

Obviously there is much more addressed in training than I am coming up with off the top of my head but that's a good start.

[JAD]

. I was able to find a very cool group for awhile that shot "tactical matches" that were exceptionally good. Of course they were very subjective and you could actually "win" by being better at explaining how you handled a problem to the group than by what your time was. Time and scoring were "guides" and more of a factor than anything else. .

I was (along with VCDgrips) able to participate in something like that for a while in the aughties, and it was very good for me; definitely the highest bang for buck in skill and tactics building. It takes a unique combination of leadership, group dynamics, and physical plant. Maybe it will happen again sometime.

I found that in IDPA shooting the match 'right' and 'to win' wasn't different enough to take me out of class -- I still would have been high SS/ low EX and I had a lot more to gain by stage planning better than by gaming.

I didn't shoot IPSC much after a fairly short while because there were too many jerks. IDPA was the new hotness back then and the USPSA crowd was old fat guys with raceguns who would skip stages with a prone component. Times have changed and that's location specific, I'm well aware.

For now, while I'd really like to participate in competition, the value per minute isn't high enough to justify taking away from my totally inadequate practice time. Maybe when the kid's a little older.

[Paul Sharp]

...I so think the idea of somebody AIWBing an STI or something, again, that was suitable as a defensive gun, is pretty intriguing though.

I know someone that carried an STI 40S&W in an AIWB rig for a few months... and still does every now and then. Having 42 rounds of 180gr hate on tap is pretty nice.

[Dagga Boy]

A ton of that is how I started. The caution for LE folks in particular is you are doing tactical stuff all the time. You'll live clear more rooms in a single shift than most people will do in a lifetime. It is critical that this remains an absolute priority. You have to be exceptionally good at not shooting and handling daily use of force, and shoot no shoot problems. Basically, you spend a ton of time prisoner taking and it needs to be a priority where not shooting is actually taking precedence. Honestly, for non professional firearms carriers....this is not a huge concern as it is fairly likely that if you draw a gun outside your home as a Concealed carrier, that you have a good chance of using it. Fit the training to the mission.

Also, I hate the generic "competition" label. Trust me, when I faced of with an armed felon in a dark bar.....it was a competition. Just with different scoring and prizes. I like to have everything I do be a competition...even if it is against myself. The differences we are talking here is sport shooting versus use of force. Scotty Reitz likes to call it "Play" shooting. It sounds derogatory, but in fact, sport shooting should be something fun. It should be enjoyable and a means for self improvement and testing while having fun. If you are not sport shooting as "Play" or "Sport" and as a means of testing and improving specific performance....and it is as "training" for use of force problem solving.....you're doing it wrong. Trust me.....a lot of folks are doing it wrong. Not the types we see on this forum, but there is some serious wrong going on out in the firearms world. That is in both the sport and professional realms.

I like to look at this just like martial arts. I learned a lot in "Sport Ju Jitsu" with some awfully good Brazilians. I kept it in context. I learned a ton "Sport shooting". I still apply many fundamental techniques from "sport shooting" to tactical stuff. I apply many fundamental techniques from sport BJJ to actual use of force on humans. Many things that make hunters successful in taking game works on people. There are a ton of things that overlap. Find what overlaps for your priority and use it. Be honest at what isn't and stay focused. I would highly suggest while on the path of maybe listening to others as to application as to what may be a negative that you think is a positive. By the same token.....like just about EVERYTHING....much of our advances come from the Sport world. We need to be paying attention to what we can steal and adapt for practical purposes whether that is guns, cars, fighting, or many other endeavors. Heck...if it were not for the Baja 1000, my Raptor would not exist. My police bicycle was used to pull 45 MPH at night on the Kamakazi Downhill in Mammoth......at night. My police bike was a full suspension bike with a carbon fiber frame. Many a duty gun would have been a race gun 30 years ago. We also steal a ton from the military side. In my 30 year quest for knowledge and improvement, I have found that the hardest part is not getting information and input, it is how to apply and disregard those inputs. How that happens is in constant flux.

[Jay Cunningham]

Good post.

[SeriousStudent]

Why is she wearing a man's suit?

Probably because she wishes to use the bathroom of her choice, and not be constrained by any narrow-minded gender-specific signage.

[Corey]

I'm old enough to remember listening to Jeff Cooper bitch about gamers. He was wrong then and he's wrong now.

[fixer]

12 pages in ( on my settings) on a subject discussed before...I'm sure many will hang on my words...

I'm a regular dude. I don't have a long list of tactical bonafides. In fact I have none.

My take on competition is that it is a very accessible way for regular people to push themselves to be better in a number of facets of weapons handling and usage in a more stressful environment than the square range. It forces guys like me to evaluate the continuum of pistol usage from the draw, press-out, reloads, sight picture, footwork in one afternoon in less than 200 rds and the entry fee.

[GJM]

I'm old enough to remember listening to Jeff Cooper bitch about gamers. He was wrong then and he's wrong now.

I am old enough to remember, too. I think a fair statement would be that his opinion evolved over time. When people like Ross S were winning with the Weaver, competition was great. Big Bear, SW Pistol League and early IPSC. After the Weaver was supplanted by the Modern Iso and the boys (Robbie and Brian), competition became bad.

[HopetonBrown]

I am old enough to remember, too. I think a fair statement would be that his opinion evolved over time. When people like Ross S were winning with the Weaver, competition was great. Big Bear, SW Pistol League and early IPSC. After the Weaver was supplanted by the Modern Iso and the boys (Robbie and Brian), competition became bad.

Mike Seeklander's interview with Ken Hackathorn touches upon these subjects. It's a great listen.

http://americanwarriorshow.libsyn.com/ken