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Thread: Week 187: Draw and Shoot Challenge 2

  1. #1
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Week 187: Draw and Shoot Challenge 2

    Week 187: Draw and Shoot Challenge 2

    Results may be posted until November 21st, 2016.

    Designed by: Gabe White
    Range: 7 yards
    Target: USPSA Metric or IDPA target with added CNS zone AND NO SHOOTS - see below -
    Start Position: Holstered
    Rounds Fired: 34

    These are some short and simple drawing and shooting sequences that we'll use as a quick test, same as in DotW 183: Draw and Shoot Challenge. Let's see how well you can do in terms of accuracy, consistency, and speed, but now with (admittedly static) no-shoots very close to the target!

    First, set up your target. Use an IDPA target or USPSA Metric target. Alternatively, you can use another silhouette target as long as it has a similarly-sized A/-0 zone in the body. Whatever target you use, add a 3x5 or similar (4" circle, etc) to the head for use as a CNS zone. If you want to use the upper A-zone on a USPSA Metric target, that's fine, though it is a bit smaller than the intended CNS zone. Add two no-shoots to either side of the A-zone, so that they are effectively blocking most of the C and D-zones, like this:

    [img]022 by OrigamiAK, on Flickr[/img]

    Alternatively, if it is too difficult to arrange the targets like that, you can simply count C and D-zone hits as no-shoot hits instead.

    Start with your handgun loaded and holstered. Concealment is optional but it will come into play during scoring. Your hands can be hanging naturally, at a high torso position, or at a surrender position - shooter's choice. Extra shots are not allowed. Record your time and score your target after each string. A/-0 zone hits are no penalty. B/C/-1 zone hits are + 0.25 seconds each. D/-3 zone hits are + 1 second each. Misses are + 2 seconds each. No Shoot hits are + 50 seconds each. Head shots that land in the body count as misses. Body shots that land in the head are lucky shots and will be scored. Each string you shoot from concealment gets a 0.25 second bonus (subtraction) from your score - this is simply an attempt at roughly equalizing concealed and open carry.

    Example 1: You are not using concealment, and you shoot String 1 (Bill Drill) in 4.50 seconds with 5 As and 1 no-shoot hit. Your score would be 54.50 seconds (4.50 + 50.00 for the no-shoot.)

    Example 2: You are shooting from concealment, and you shoot String 3 (Failure to Stop) in 2.25 seconds with 2 As and 1 B (head shot is in the head but outside the CNS zone.) Your score would be 2.25 seconds (2.25 + 0.25 for the B, but - 0.25 for the concealment.)

    Example 3: You are shooting from concealment, and you shoot String 7 (4 body 2 head) in 2.50 seconds, with 2 As, 1 C, 1 D, and 2 Bs. Your score would be 4.00 (2.50 + .25 for the C, + 1.0 for the D, + .50 for the two Bs, but - 0.25 for the concealment.)

    Here's the actual drill:

    String 1: At the beep, draw and shoot 6 rounds to the body (Bill Drill.)
    String 2: Repeat String 1.
    String 3: At the beep, draw and shoot 2 rounds to the body and 1 round to the head (Failure to Stop.)
    String 4: Repeat String 3.
    String 5: At the beep, draw and shoot 2 rounds to the head.
    String 6: Repeat String 5.
    String 7: At the beep, draw and shoot 4 rounds to the body and 2 rounds to the head.
    String 8: Repeat String 7.

    Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

    Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used)
    Target used
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 1
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 2
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 3
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 4
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 5
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 6
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 7
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 8
    Grand Total Score of all strings together
    Anything you noticed - Especially, if you shot DotW 183: Draw and Shoot Challenge, take a moment and notice how your shooting was affected by the presence of close no-shoots.

    Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com
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  2. #2
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
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    Equipment used: Gen3 G34, concealed in a Keeper under a polo shirt
    USPSA Metric w/ added no-shoots
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 1: 2.34 (6A) - .25 = 2.09
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 2: 2.35 (6A) - .25 = 2.10
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 3: 2.02 (3A) - .25 = 1.77
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 4: 2.05 (3A) - .25 = 1.80
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 5: 1.75 (2A) - .25 = 1.50
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 6: 1.82 (2A) - .25 = 1.57
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 7: 3.03 (5A1B) - .25 + .25 = 3.03
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 8: 3.36 (6A) - .25 = 3.11
    Grand Total Score of all strings together: 16.97
    Anything you noticed - Especially, if you shot DotW 183: Draw and Shoot Challenge, take a moment and notice how your shooting was affected by the presence of close no-shoots.: Looks like my final score differs from the same drill series without the no-shoots by about 15%, as I move from shooting for As, compared to guaranteeing As.

    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com
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  3. #3
    Scoring question on the no shoots. Are we using USPSA rules to score the no-shoots? So if I get a partial hit on a no-shoot that cuts the perf but also cuts the perf on the target, I get credit for the hit?
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  4. #4
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    Scoring question on the no shoots. Are we using USPSA rules to score the no-shoots? So if I get a partial hit on a no-shoot that cuts the perf but also cuts the perf on the target, I get credit for the hit?
    Yep, that is what I would go with.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com
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  5. #5
    Team Garrote '23 backtrail540's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
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    Glock 17 gen 3 chopped to 19 length/stippled
    JMCK wingclaw aiwb concealed under a fleece
    USPSA metric with 3x5 in headbox

    String 1 - 3.98 clean = 3.73
    String 2 - 3.66 clean = 3.41
    String 3 - 2.72 clean = 2.47
    String 4 - 2.93 1b = 2.93
    String 5 - 2.54 clean = 2.29
    String 6 - 2.46 clean = 2.21
    String 7 - 3.89 1b = 3.89
    String 8 - 4.06 1b = 4.06

    Total time = 24.99


    The word of the day was deliberateness. I had a good day shooting today. I warmed up with the defoor pistol test 1 and finally passed all 4 strings consecutively, which is a first for me as I generally can pass any of the strings but lacked the consistency to put it all together in the same run. Then I did one of my recent favorite drills, a 3x5 in 5 drill that was a previous dotw from way back and passed at 15 yards. At this point I was feeling good and didn't want to screw things up. I shot at a "pissed if I miss" vs a "hope i hit" pace(credit the terminology to another PF member whom I can't recall at this time, possibly JV?) and the only dropped shots were still hits in the head box albeit out of the 3x5 card(all three about a quarter to half inch low). I felt as this was as close as I can get to guaranteeing hits without going impractically slow, or at least a good balance between the two.
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  6. #6
    Member MVS's Avatar
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    Apr 2014
    Location
    MI
    Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used) Gen3G19 w/RMR Fricke AIWB, Pullover concealment
    Target used USPSA with 3X5 on head.
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 1 4.92-.25+50 (Dang!)=54.67
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 2 5.27-.25=5.02
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 3 3.43-.25=3.18
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 4 3.11-.25=2.86
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 5 2.30-.25+.25(B)=2.3
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 6 2.78-.25=2.53
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 7 5.39-.25=5.14
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 8 4.65-.25=4.4
    Grand Total Score of all strings together 80.1
    Anything you noticed - Total mind trip. After I hit that no shoot on the first one I played it too safe and slow. How did I hit the no shoot on that first run when I am normally slow but accurate? The reason was a bad trigger press, why I am not sure. I do know that A zone seemed a lot smaller with those no shoots on both sides.
    Last edited by MVS; 10-22-2016 at 12:16 PM.
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  7. #7
    Site Supporter MDS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Terroir de terror
    Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used)
    G17Gen4 from SME under tshirt.

    Target used
    PT target; larger circle = body hit, anything out of that is no-shoot; 3x5 = head hit, anything in square is -.25s

    Time, penalties, and total score
    • String 1: 4.22 (6A) -.25 = 3.97
    • String 2: 3.68 (5A 1NS) -.25 +50 = 53.43
    • String 3: 3.26 (2A) -.25 = 3.01
    • String 4: 3.38 (2A) -.25 = 3.13
    • String 5: 2.44 (1A 1B) +.25 -.25 = 2.44
    • String 6: 3.35 (2A) -.25 = 3.10
    • String 7: 3.99 (6A) -.25 = 3.74
    • String 8: 4.79 (6A) -.25 = 4.54


    Grand Total Score of all strings together: 77.36

    Anything you noticed - Especially, if you shot DotW 183: Draw and Shoot Challenge, take a moment and notice how your shooting was affected by the presence of close no-shoots.

    I wish I would have set up actual no-shoots, because the tight targeting didn't really mess with my head. I mean, I shot the bill drills pretty much on the edge of accuracy, and took a catastrophic +50, possibly because the lack of actual no-shoot didn't trigger my brain to be more careful than usual. After that I slowed do make more sure I got my hits, but it was all cold calculation and no psychological feeling of catastrophe potential, you know? Anyway, it's a long story but I wasn't wearing a real belt and my draws were crap, which really did mess with my shooting...
    The answer, it seems to me, is wrath. The mind cannot foresee its own advance. --FA Hayek Specialization is for insects.
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  8. #8
    Week 187: Draw and Shoot Challenge 2

    Results may be posted until November 21st, 2016.

    Designed by: Gabe White
    Range: 7 yards
    Target: USPSA Metric or IDPA target with added CNS zone AND NO SHOOTS - see below -
    Start Position: Holstered
    Rounds Fired: 34

    These are some short and simple drawing and shooting sequences that we'll use as a quick test, same as in DotW 183: Draw and Shoot Challenge. Let's see how well you can do in terms of accuracy, consistency, and speed, but now with (admittedly static) no-shoots very close to the target!

    First, set up your target. Use an IDPA target or USPSA Metric target. Alternatively, you can use another silhouette target as long as it has a similarly-sized A/-0 zone in the body. Whatever target you use, add a 3x5 or similar (4" circle, etc) to the head for use as a CNS zone. If you want to use the upper A-zone on a USPSA Metric target, that's fine, though it is a bit smaller than the intended CNS zone. Add two no-shoots to either side of the A-zone, so that they are effectively blocking most of the C and D-zones, like this:

    Start with your handgun loaded and holstered. Concealment is optional but it will come into play during scoring. Your hands can be hanging naturally, at a high torso position, or at a surrender position - shooter's choice. Extra shots are not allowed. Record your time and score your target after each string. A/-0 zone hits are no penalty. B/C/-1 zone hits are + 0.25 seconds each. D/-3 zone hits are + 1 second each. Misses are + 2 seconds each. No Shoot hits are + 50 seconds each. Head shots that land in the body count as misses. Body shots that land in the head are lucky shots and will be scored. Each string you shoot from concealment gets a 0.25 second bonus (subtraction) from your score - this is simply an attempt at roughly equalizing concealed and open carry.



    Equipment used: Dan Wesson Valkyrie Commander 9mm, CapArms Superior Range Ammo 9mm, CCC Shaggy AIWB holster, 5.11 pullover for concealment.
    Target used: USPSA Metric, no no-shoots, C/D counted as no shoots.
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 1: 3.18-.25 (6A) = 2.93
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 2: 2.98-.25 (6A) = 2.73
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 3: 2.69-.25 (3A) = 2.44
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 4: 2.85-.25 (3A) = 2.60
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 5: 2.56-.25 (1A/1B) + .25 = 2.56
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 6: 2.49-.25 (2A) = 2.24
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 7: 4.00-.25 (6A) = 3.75
    Time, penalties, and total score for String 8: 4.25-.25 (6A) = 4.00

    Grand Total Score: 23.25

    Anything you noticed - Even though I didn't shoot the previous DoTW that was related to this, knowing that the C-zone was essentially death for my score, I aimed my ass off on this drill. My final group in the chest A-zone was actually much smaller than it needed to be, as had I utilized the entire scoring area I could have maybe bought back a second or two. As it was I punched a fist sized group in the chest.

    One note: I had a FTE that resulted in a double feed on the very first round of String 2, so I just said fuck it and re-shot the string for score.
    Last edited by jetfire; 10-28-2016 at 05:58 PM.
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  9. #9
    Member Mickey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Equipment used Beretta M-9

    String 1-5.78
    String 2-5.77 +50
    String 3-4.83
    String 4-7.22
    String 5-4.75
    String 6-3.49
    String 7-6.82 +.50 +50
    String 8-4.45

    Total raw-43.11
    Total with penalties 143.61
    On string 2 I had a bad grip and let one get over a little too far and into a no-shoot. On string 7 I didn't get a good enough grip to deactivate the GLS and had to hustle to get the gun out. Well I hustled a little harder than I should have I clipped a no-shoot yet again and dropped one of the headshots. Overall my raw time was 11.03 slower than the first version.
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    Last edited by Mickey; 10-28-2016 at 10:23 PM.
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  10. #10
    Member Luke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Alabama
    I think there is a big difference between having the two no shoots and pretending there are no shoots


    What say ye Gabe
    Last edited by Luke; 10-28-2016 at 10:26 PM.
    i used to wannabe
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