I'm looking for some German Shepherd advice and info.

[JTQ]

She is a bit over protective of the house, but I can think of worse traits.

This is a big deal, especially for somebody with this experience...

JohnO wrote,
Currently we have a 14-year old 20 Lb mini poodle who sleeps on my son's bed every night. Prior to the poodle we had Retrievers.

Territorial breeds need lots of socialization. Poodles and retrievers typically like everybody. The herding and working breeds are naturally suspicious and can be a problem if you aren't prepared for it and more so if you don't socialize them with people and other animals. You can do it, but remember they aren't Labs.

To me, the purebred advantage is you can usually get the size pretty accurate. Getting a puppy from the pound, advertised as a Cocker Spaniel/Yorkshire Terrier that turns out to be a 100 lb dog can be a problem. Otherwise, there is a lot to be said for a puppy from the pound. With kids, I'd be hesitant to get a rescue dog, especially a territorial breed, that is older than a few months old. There usually is a reason it is a rescue dog and unless you really know what you're doing it could be a problem.

[BJXDS]

+1 on the GSD. I have had a few. The comments about shedding and hair can't really be appreciated until you experience it.

Buy from a reputable breeder. The ones we had were great family dogs, however they definitely bonded more closely with one person. They choose you you don't choose them. With that said, everyone in the house must be the Alpha/pack leader, especially the one person they bond with.

Also the ones we had LOVED to chew everything and acted like a rambunctious teenager for over 2 years, but once they settled down and matured the intelligence and protective instincts they had were truly amazing.

Sometimes I want another one, but just don't have the time or energy.

[LittleLebowski]

I've got USAA and they're fine with GSDs.

I love the breed. I prefer the K9 breeds like these and Belgian Malinois and Dutch Shepherds.

Your family sounds like they can handle the dog. Around $800-$1500 is acceptable and normal for a good pup. Personally, I like pups 6 months to even 18 months old. They're still young but housebroken.

When dog shopping look for less of a sloped back on the sire/bitch and the rest of their dogs. Of course, look for a health/hip guarantee and ask hard questions about the hips. Some other things you can personally look for is a breeder that advertises health over Schutzhund titles and doesn't go on and on about gait (the sloped back on many GSDs is due to breeders wanting a better, smoother gait in the show ring, no shit). Some slope to the back is fine but I think it's obvious to most when it's a possible health issue. Personally, I would prefer a nice straight back like the original GSDs. Hip disease is a very real issue with GSDs and it's because of stupid breeding choices. Buyer beware.

GSDs are not Labs. I know that you know this but it bears repeating. These dogs need an alpha and/or a family not afraid to correct the dog. It's not hard to do so but you cannot be afraid of the dog and you must always know and feel that you are the boss, the same goes for the rest of your household. These dogs want that. Don't get wrapped up in silly dog psychology bullshit, be the boss and give the dog lots of love too. Do this right and you'll have a confident and fearless animal that knows when to bite and when to be friendly. This result is not hard to produce. In fact, unless you're going to get formal training via a trainer or Schutzhund, don't worry about encouraging the dog to bite; that's built in. They will know if and when the time comes.

These dogs need activity. Not just running them X amount of miles a day, actual mental activity. Find the tennis ball, wrassling roughly with Dad; these things count just as much as running. Their little brains love play like this and it will give them an outlet for their energy. With regards to wrassling, here's another "not a Lab" moment: this is one of the breeds that instinctively grabs your arm (sans puncturing) and holds onto it. It's not a big deal, be prepared, and be ready to teach them "OUT!" As some here have noted, the dogs really mature and come into their own around 2.5-3 yrs of age.

I think that a good GSD is perfect for someone getting into K9 breeds. Yes, the Mals (Belgian Malinois) are more athletic, replacing GSDs in police and military use in many places, shed less, and so on. They also routinely chase their tails as adults if not exercised (mental stimulus as wrote about previously is something Mals need as well) and can be quite aggressive if not trained right. The way I see it, the Mal is a like a guided missile; if guided in, it's very destructive. The GSD is more like a sentry on auto pilot. Of course, there's many GSDs that can do everything a Mal can do.

Here's some picture to help you out:

One of the first German Shepherds, note the beautiful back:


What breeders breeding for the show ring have done to the breed ("half dog half frog") :

[Peally]

Seeing those show dogs always pisses me off. Let's breed an animal so much for "good" looks it's completely fucked up and structurally broken and call that good.

[Jim Watson]

Agreed.
Not a German Shepherd, but a friend tells stories about his field grade Cocker Spaniel. Stoney was intelligent and athletic, not at all the general image of the breed based on showdogs.

[JohnO]

I've got USAA and they're fine with GSDs.

I love the breed. I prefer the K9 breeds like these and Belgian Malinois and Dutch Shepherds.

Your family sounds like they can handle the dog. Around $800-$1500 is acceptable and normal for a good pup. Personally, I like pups 6 months to even 18 months old. They're still young but housebroken.

When dog shopping look for less of a sloped back on the sire/bitch and the rest of their dogs. Of course, look for a health/hip guarantee and ask hard questions about the hips. Some other things you can personally look for is a breeder that advertises health over Schutzhund titles and doesn't go on and on about gait (the sloped back on many GSDs is due to breeders wanting a better, smoother gait in the show ring, no shit). Some slope to the back is fine but I think it's obvious to most when it's a possible health issue. Personally, I would prefer a nice straight back like the original GSDs. Hip disease is a very real issue with GSDs and it's because of stupid breeding choices. Buyer beware.

GSDs are not Labs. I know that you know this but it bears repeating. These dogs need an alpha and/or a family not afraid to correct the dog. It's not hard to do so but you cannot be afraid of the dog and you must always know and feel that you are the boss, the same goes for the rest of your household. These dogs want that. Don't get wrapped up in silly dog psychology bullshit, be the boss and give the dog lots of love too. Do this right and you'll have a confident and fearless animal that knows when to bite and when to be friendly. This result is not hard to produce. In fact, unless you're going to get formal training via a trainer or Schutzhund, don't worry about encouraging the dog to bite; that's built in. They will know if and when the time comes.

These dogs need activity. Not just running them X amount of miles a day, actual mental activity. Find the tennis ball, wrassling roughly with Dad; these things count just as much as running. Their little brains love play like this and it will give them an outlet for their energy. With regards to wrassling, here's another "not a Lab" moment: this is one of the breeds that instinctively grabs your arm (sans puncturing) and holds onto it. It's not a big deal, be prepared, and be ready to teach them "OUT!" As some here have noted, the dogs really mature and come into their own around 2.5-3 yrs of age.

I think that a good GSD is perfect for someone getting into K9 breeds. Yes, the Mals (Belgian Malinois) are more athletic, replacing GSDs in police and military use in many places, shed less, and so on. They also routinely chase their tails as adults if not exercised (mental stimulus as wrote about previously is something Mals need as well) and can be quite aggressive if not trained right. The way I see it, the Mal is a like a guided missile; if guided in, it's very destructive. The GSD is more like a sentry on auto pilot. Of course, there's many GSDs that can do everything a Mal can do.

Here's some picture to help you out:

One of the first German Shepherds, note the beautiful back:


What breeders breeding for the show ring have done to the breed ("half dog half frog") :

Thank you for the excellent advice. I had my son watch the dog finding the ball video. I explained to him how we will need to keep the dog challenged mentally. I also encouraged my son to get over to the library and see if they have any good dog training books.

In regards to the sloping back, one of the breeders I talked with told me that the typical "show pose" exaggerates the slope and makes it look worse than it really is. In the pictures you provided comparing hind legs on the two dogs appears to account for some of the slope difference.

We also heard the the dogs with German blood lines are higher drive animals? I swear someone told us the opposite.

Right now we are looking for a female as a first choice but won't turn down a male from a good breeder if that is all that is available. We were told the females are less likely to roam, probably would be more tolerant of our male mini-poodle (actually become his protector). If this goes well I could see adding a second GSD of the opposite sex in a couple years or when the poodle departs for the big dog park in the sky.

The breeder we are waiting on really struck a cord with us when she said that for the last 30+ years since she has had German Shepard dogs she has never seen the need and has never locked her doors. She does not let her dogs go till they are 12 weeks. Everyone else is pretty much right at 8 weeks. I don't know if those extra 4 weeks has any significance. With people lining up for her dogs it must say something about her dedication to the animals.

[Lex Luthier]

JohnO, this last bit about the breeder is really nice to hear. I think you are on the right track. A breeder who takes the medical aspects seriously and does hip & heart testing on the breeding dogs is golden.
I do not own a GSD, but rather a standard wire-haired dachshund. They too have had their bouts of show popularity, and have suffered a little as a result, though nowhere near as much as GSDs. Mine is a grandson of the tan fellow here.

His breeder is a pearl of great price. All of her dogs work. My dog's dad and grandmother currently track deer.
Like dachshunds, the GSD have some very strong breed traits, and it is important to know what will and will not be common across the spectrum.
I hope that during the 12 weeks she has the dogs, she is running them through basic obedience and socializing training. You may find that a dog kept that long by the breeder takes a little while to get into the swing of your particular family, but if the training is effective, he or she will be a fast learner once they get used to the dynamics of your particular situation. Can you visit and work with the dog during the last few weeks?

[JTQ]

Right now we are looking for a female as a first choice but won't turn down a male from a good breeder if that is all that is available. We were told the females are less likely to roam, probably would be more tolerant of our male mini-poodle (actually become his protector).

All probably true.

The female downside would be more shedding, and the "fella's" have already given the heads up on the shedding issue with GSD's.

[Crawls]

Thank you for the excellent advice. I had my son watch the dog finding the ball video. I explained to him how we will need to keep the dog challenged mentally. I also encouraged my son to get over to the library and see if they have any good dog training books.

In regards to the sloping back, one of the breeders I talked with told me that the typical "show pose" exaggerates the slope and makes it look worse than it really is. In the pictures you provided comparing hind legs on the two dogs appears to account for some of the slope difference.

We also heard the the dogs with German blood lines are higher drive animals? I swear someone told us the opposite.

Right now we are looking for a female as a first choice but won't turn down a male from a good breeder if that is all that is available. We were told the females are less likely to roam, probably would be more tolerant of our male mini-poodle (actually become his protector). If this goes well I could see adding a second GSD of the opposite sex in a couple years or when the poodle departs for the big dog park in the sky.

The breeder we are waiting on really struck a cord with us when she said that for the last 30+ years since she has had German Shepard dogs she has never seen the need and has never locked her doors. She does not let her dogs go till they are 12 weeks. Everyone else is pretty much right at 8 weeks. I don't know if those extra 4 weeks has any significance. With people lining up for her dogs it must say something about her dedication to the animals.

My two cents:
The "stack" - the position they place a dog in for evaluation in a show - only exaggerates the top line of the dog so much. There will still be a substantial difference between working lines and show lines even when looking at "German show lines." LL's post is spot on. I'll add to it that you should also pay close attention to the angulation of the rear hocks as well. I've seen show lines dogs have such extreme angulation that their rear hocks touch the ground when they walk. Strangely, it makes the dog seem to glide when trotting, but makes the dog somewhat useless for anything else. Make sure you see videos of the parents and watch how they move at different speeds. One of the great things about GSDs is there is enough information on the net to help you figure out what is right and what is wrong.

I'll caution you that a female GSD can often be completely intolerant of other dogs. My former very dominant male Malinois was wasn't near as nasty to other dogs as my current GSD bitch.

Bringing a puppy into a home with a senior dog can be very hard on the older dog - especially if the pup is a larger working breed. You'll have to make sure that the pup doesn't terrorize the poodle too much.

I think the breeder's 12 week departure concept is contrary to conventional training concepts. That alone would convince me to spend my money elsewhere.

[Crawls]

This is Oda. I think she has very good structure. Not perfect, but darn close.