So, I wonder...

[rob_s]

I have thought a number of times about 'what if' I had done things differently. I mean, I did the only thing I knew to do at the time, which was a shitload of defensive handgun training. I think I could/would have reached a higher level of technical skill much sooner had I devoted that money and time to shooting and practicing technical skill. At the same time, even if it wasn't the most efficient way to go about trying to get a high level of technical skill, I still feel well-served by the basic technical foundation that defensive training did provide, if not at a very high level, and I feel like I was well-prepared to dive into the technical world later on with a little more perspective. I don't know, but I think about that sometimes. It's just the whole thing about 'who do you want to be, now how do you best become that?' But can't go back and do it over, so who knows. I'm tired right now so I hope this post makes sense.

It does make sense and I share your thoughts.

But, not to be all M4-carbiney about it, I didn't know what I didn't know. I thought that was what I was *supposed to* do. And while I mostly blame myself for being duped, the whole branding of fear in the training industry doesn't really do the students any service, in my retrospective opinion anyway. And I bought it, hook and all, probably because I wanted to.

But I had a boatload of fun, enjoyed almost every minute of it, and stopped doing it when it stopped being fun. In terms of the experience I have no real regrets, and met some of the best people ever along the way. But that's different than becoming a better shooter because of it.

I know we've taken a lot of the same instruction from many of the same guys. Almost always stressed, even in the worst classes, was "homework" and the need to shoot outside of classes. In addition at the time I got started seriously there was discussion on the folks who only shot in classes.

What I am saying is not that I needed to take the classes *and* do the outside practice, I'm saying that the outside practice alone would have made me a better shooter hour-for-hour, dollar-for-dollar, round-for-round, once past the first couple of classes. In fact, I'd say that some of those subsequent training classes probably did me a disservice and resulted in less-gooder shooting not moar-gooder.

[orionz06]

What I am saying is not that I needed to take the classes *and* do the outside practice, I'm saying that the outside practice alone would have made me a better shooter hour-for-hour, dollar-for-dollar, round-for-round, once past the first couple of classes. In fact, I'd say that some of those subsequent training classes probably did me a disservice and resulted in less-gooder shooting not moar-gooder.

Yes it would have. That's not really news though.


What were your expectations of those classes?


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[BaiHu]

Wow, VERY interesting article, thank you for posting that Rob!

Needed more thumbs and attention. Great article!

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[rob_s]

Yes it would have. That's not really news though.

No? Maybe not to some, but I bet it is to many, if not most, of the people attending the courses. And more than a few reading this.

What were your expectations of those classes?

Hard to say, as it changed over time, and it's been quite a few years since I have been to one. Difficult to go back in time and recall what I was thinking then. But I think it's safe to say that in the beginning I at least expected to leave a better shooter than I arrived, and later on expected to at least leave with the tools or knowledge to make myself a better shooter. [edit] Although what I probably expected was to not necessarily be a better shooter but at least be a better "gunfighter" because:mindset and because:not-a-shooting-class-but-a-gunfighting-class and all that jazz.

Especially as my training wandered into the new-school of face-shooters what I realize now it that I more and more frequently left with nothing more than a bunch of cool stories.

And fun. Don't forget I had fun.

[Paul Sharp]

Wow, VERY interesting article, thank you for posting that Rob!

I bought and read Peak after Les Pepperoni recommended it to me. Excellent book and in line with many conversations I've had with William Aprill on the subject... as well as some conversations we've had on Gladwell but that's a whole other thread.

[leif]

So back to the original topic, how much did he shoot on day 2 and 3? I looked at my notes and I shot ~1500 total in his 3 day pistol 1 class.

[MVS]

So back to the original topic, how much did he shoot on day 2 and 3? I looked at my notes and I shot ~1500 total in his 3 day pistol 1 class.

In post 67 LSP says his friend shot just over 2,000 rounds total.

[JSGlock34]

I know we've taken a lot of the same instruction from many of the same guys. Almost always stressed, even in the worst classes, was "homework" and the need to shoot outside of classes. In addition at the time I got started seriously there was discussion on the folks who only shot in classes.


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I like to take a class annually. I don't get to shoot as often as I'd like, and marksmanship is perishable. I find going through a structured program once a year helps me maintain my skills. When I do get to shoot, 98% of the time it is on a square indoor range. I don't have the same opportunities to shoot from cover, or unusual positions, or on the move (I'd like to start competing again, but local options are limited and I won't be traveling to compete). So the annual class is also a good opportunity to practice some skills that I seldom get to use.

And undeniably I consider the training class a chance to get a few days with friends. I'm an enthusiast, and if I didn't find shooting enjoyable I wouldn't be going to classes in my spare time or posting on this forum.

I think if you're doing nothing but training classes, you're doing it wrong, but I think periodic refresher training has its value.

[leif]

In post 67 LSP says his friend shot just over 2,000 rounds total.

oh oops, thx

[orionz06]

I like to take a class annually. I don't get to shoot as often as I'd like, and marksmanship is perishable. I find going through a structured program once a year helps me maintain my skills. When I do get to shoot, 98% of the time it is on a square indoor range. I don't have the same opportunities to shoot from cover, or unusual positions, or on the move (I'd like to start competing again, but local options are limited and I won't be traveling to compete). So the annual class is also a good opportunity to practice some skills that I seldom get to use.

And undeniably I consider the training class a chance to get a few days with friends. I'm an enthusiast, and if I didn't find shooting enjoyable I wouldn't be going to classes in my spare time or posting on this forum.

I think if you're doing nothing but training classes, you're doing it wrong, but I think periodic refresher training has its value.

What I was getting at are the guys who take 7 basic pistol classes from the same group of instructors each year and maybe one "advanced" class as well and never get better than not sucking. Classes can be fun, they can be more fun with good people. Some of the best times I've had have been in miserable weather with awesome folks. I feel my expectations were valid for the work and type of work put in.