So, I wonder...

[Mr_White]

Would an AI focus on those people and try to help them keep up so the others aren't bogged down as much? Curious, this is all out of my lane, but interesting.

It's been a long time since then, but the standout memory I have is that there were certain activities in an advanced handgun class that we never actually got to do, because the school had allowed two or three students in the class who simply were not ready for it and really needed to go back a couple of classes. The school kept throwing AIs at them, to keep them limping along in the everyone-on-the-line exercises, and it ended up eating enough time that between that and their usual ~4pm end time, we didn't get to do the things that I personally took the class specifically for. That may be a modestly-early end time, but it is normally within the context of an otherwise very full and efficiently-run day that starts around 8am. It is not a nationally-known school that would be on this forum's radar, and this is one of the only negative experiences I ever had with them. Overall, they do an excellent job, especially with earlier, formative defensive training. Throwing more AIs at problem students rather than excusing them is a weakness in some situations though, like this one. The instructors did later acknowledge that they shouldn't have had those few people in the class.

[leif]

As I stated I took a class with Costa, it was about three or four years ago now. Our class was pretty big, for sure, but at that point in my illustrious training career I had only been to big classes so I didn't know any better.

I learned a lot from him and found him friendly, approachable and nothing like his internet persona. I don't understand the internet anger from people that have never trained with him but haters gon' hate no matter what.

[Default.mp3]

How was the class arranged? I mean, I've heard of stories where Pat McNamara classes were running >20 deep, with no AIs, due to poor coordination between the training company (Alias) and the range, but no one's going to shit on McNamara as an instructor.

As for folks that are hating on Costa for teaching when he's not a competitive shooter, didn't see combat, wasn't in a high speed unit, didn't work patrol, etc., I have to ask, why does any of that matter for the context of this class? He's teaching relatively basic manipulations, not tactics. Don't get me wrong, I have zero interest in taking a Costa Ludus course, but that doesn't mean that taking his class is automatically a complete and utter waste of time. I'd go as far as to say the same about Yeager/Tactical Response. These guys are far from being the best instructors around, but they're hardly bottom-of-the-barrel either, if you're just going to be training manipulations; the value proposition may be poor, but sometimes availability trumps that.

[rob_s]

Honest question Rob, because I know you have been through a lot of training with a lot of people - what kind of things are the 50% horseshit given out even by good trainers? What kinds of things are not horseshit but instead worthwhile, in your view?

Thanks!

I think most of it comes down to trainers being locked into one thing or another, or not getting out more, or starting to view it as a job and not a passion.

I'm sure everyone has been in a class where they've heard even their favorite instructor say something that wasn't quite "right".

I think it's also pretty common knowledge these days where I stand on the (what I consider to be) fear-mongering in most "fighting" classes. That alone probably counts for 30% of the horseshit.

But ignoring that, the other 20% comes from people getting out of their lane. Guys who have never been in a gunfight talking about how it's going to go down. Dudes that dropped out of high school giving medical lessons. Same dudes giving engineering lessons. or freakin automotive mechanic lessons. Or gunsmithing lessons. Guys who have only ever been in gunfights but no matches talking about competition getting you killed. outright misrepresentations of their own experiences, or passing on anecdotal or urban legend type information (like the guy that died with his empty brass in his pocket).

[Mr_White]

I appreciate that Rob, thank you for taking the time to answer.

[rob_s]

It's been a long time since then, but the standout memory I have is that there were certain activities in an advanced handgun class that we never actually got to do, because the school had allowed two or three students in the class who simply were not ready for it and really needed to go back a couple of classes. The school kept throwing AIs at them, to keep them limping along in the everyone-on-the-line exercises, and it ended up eating enough time that between that and their usual ~4pm end time, we didn't get to do the things that I personally took the class specifically for. That may be a modestly-early end time, but it is normally within the context of an otherwise very full and efficiently-run day that starts around 8am. It is not a nationally-known school that would be on this forum's radar, and this is one of the only negative experiences I ever had with them. Overall, they do an excellent job, especially with earlier, formative defensive training. Throwing more AIs at problem students rather than excusing them is a weakness in some situations though, like this one. The instructors did later acknowledge that they shouldn't have had those few people in the class.

Something I always thought an AI could be used for is separating the mouth-breathers from the better shooters.

Start off the day with a series of shooting tests. FUBAR the tests, you go over to range 2 with the rubber-ducky squad and the AI. Pass the tests you stay with Mr big-name-celebrity.

of course, going back to the horseshit, this is a business (or a study in ego) not an education system or a mechanism for producing good shooters. Which means you have to cater to the rubber-ducky squad because they are the majority, and if you are known for putting people on the short bus you aren't likely to have many sign-ups.

I almost signed up for a TLG class one time after a break from shooting. I was looking to kick-start getting back into it. I looked up his site or otherwise somewhere found "if you can't do X then this class isn't for you". i went to the range, couldn't do X, and therefore didn't sign up. Wasn't offended or butthurt or anything else, and was thankful to know of the standard before I arrived so I didn't screw it up for everyone else.

[LSP972]

... or passing on... urban legend type information (like the guy that died with his empty brass in his pocket).

I hear you... but THAT one is NOT "urban legend". It happened in Kalifornia in 1970... four CHP patrolmen, to be precise. Google "The Newhall Massacre". It was a watershed event that changed LE training doctrine for the better.

And it wasn't the only time that happened... just the most-reported.

.

[Default.mp3]

I hear you... but THAT one is NOT "urban legend". It happened in Kalifornia in 1970... four CHP patrolmen, to be precise. Google "The Newhall Massacre". It was a watershed event that changed LE training doctrine for the better.

And it wasn't the only time that happened... just the most-reported.

.

In reference to the Newhall Massacre: https://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...hall-Incident/

So... yeah, apparently it didn't happen.

[Jay Cunningham]

Let's not go down that rabbit hole right now in this thread.

[Guinnessman]

Something I always thought an AI could be used for is separating the mouth-breathers from the better shooters.

Start off the day with a series of shooting tests. FUBAR the tests, you go over to range 2 with the rubber-ducky squad and the AI. Pass the tests you stay with Mr big-name-celebrity.

of course, going back to the horseshit, this is a business (or a study in ego) not an education system or a mechanism for producing good shooters. Which means you have to cater to the rubber-ducky squad because they are the majority, and if you are known for putting people on the short bus you aren't likely to have many sign-ups.

I almost signed up for a TLG class one time after a break from shooting. I was looking to kick-start getting back into it. I looked up his site or otherwise somewhere found "if you can't do X then this class isn't for you". i went to the range, couldn't do X, and therefore didn't sign up. Wasn't offended or butthurt or anything else, and was thankful to know of the standard before I arrived so I didn't screw it up for everyone else.

Rob,

How is the so called "Rubber Ducky Squad" members supposed to get better if they are not welcome in a class? Are we talking about shooters that are taking a class above their skill set?

As a group, the shooting community needs to encourage training and improving one's skills. Sending a group of students to the AI because they failed a test is shitty customer service and a damn good way to turn people away from training.