Shotgun upgrades/armorer support

[deputyG23]

Our Undersheriff came to me today and asked if I would secure a newly taken staff member's Glock into the armory pending an IA investigation since I was an "armorer". I explained to her that I was technically not an "armorer" any more since my Glock creds expired years ago despite having gone to multiple armorer's/advanced armorers schools through the '90s and early 2000's. She said "We will fix that". I also mentioned that we had no one certified to service our 870P shotguns due to retirements. She said "Get prices on the school and also prices for new shotguns". "Ours are old and need to be upgraded." They were bought in 1996 when our original jail was expanded and a second facility was constructed. I have searched and have been unable to find any factory sponsored 870 armorer's training at all. Is this because there is less demand for shotguns in general in law enforcement these days? I found numerous AR/M16 armorer's schools, two Benelli shotgun armorer's schools, and Academi (formerly Blackwater) does the armorer's training now for Mossberg. I think we have about twenty-five 870Ps with wood furniture and extended mags/rifle sights/mostly 20" barrels. About eight are beat to hell since they are academy guns and the others range in condition from serviceable to unfired. Our agency is not a full service LE provider. We are responsible for jail security, civil process, court security, and transportation of prisoners. Our road folks carry their shotguns cased in the back compartment of the Ford PPV (Explorer) with extra shells carried in a shoulder bag.
Should we:

Consider another manufacturer with hopefully better availability of armorer support?

Wait until armorer training is provided and upgrade the existing guns with short LOP or adjustable stocks and slings and do a full inspection and service on them? What other upgrades would you consider that would be cost effective?

If new shotguns are desired by our Command, what would you buy in today's marketplace considering quality, price, and manufacturer support?

Thanks to all for your knowledge.

[BobM]

I checked remingtonle.com and looks like they are done for the year and haven't posted the 2017 schedule yet. I believe they come to the Ohio Peace Officers Training Academy annually


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[DamonL]

http://www.remingtonle.com/training/15schedule.htm

Scroll to the bottom and look for field schools (classes hosted at someones agency). There are some in PA and OH before the end of the year.

[ST911]

I explained to her that I was technically not an "armorer" any more since my Glock creds expired years ago despite having gone to multiple armorer's/advanced armorers schools through the '90s and early 2000's. She said "We will fix that".

Armorer is not only a certificate/credential, it's a job or additional duty label. If you have it, I'd be slow to surrender it. Especially if the boss is going to you, and it positions you to steer the program in good directions. Certs expire, but your knowledge didn't.

She said "Get prices on the school and also prices for new shotguns". "Ours are old and need to be upgraded." They were bought in 1996 when our original jail was expanded and a second facility was constructed.

...

If new shotguns are desired by our Command, what would you buy in today's marketplace considering quality, price, and manufacturer support?

Your guns need a good once-over, a mag spring, and maybe some odds and ends. If admin is willing to spend money and the base guns are solid, you might consider a trip to Wilson or Vang.

Another course for you to consider is Sully's SG armorer class. I have not been, but others I know who hosted and attended report good things. http://www.thedefensiveedge.com/

While someone is in the mood to spend money on your SG program, consider adding a SG skills course to the pile. Or host it.

[Chuck Haggard]

Armorer is not only a certificate/credential, it's a job or additional duty label. If you have it, I'd be slow to surrender it. Especially if the boss is going to you, and it positions you to steer the program in good directions. Certs expire, but your knowledge didn't.



Your guns need a good once-over, a mag spring, and maybe some odds and ends. If admin is willing to spend money and the base guns are solid, you might consider a trip to Wilson or Vang.

Another course for you to consider is Sully's SG armorer class. I have not been, but others I know who hosted and attended report good things. http://www.thedefensiveedge.com/

While someone is in the mood to spend money on your SG program, consider adding a SG skills course to the pile. Or host it.

I didn't realize that Sully was doing shotgun classes. Thanks for posting that.

[DamonL]

Shotgun Instructor certification is a good idea.

It could be a chance to introduce the idea a patrol rifle program, too.

[DpdG]

From your previous posts on a rifle program, and the apparent backburner status of the shotgun program to this point, I would pick one or the other (rifle or shotgun) and put all my efforts into getting the skills and equipment up to speed. Once that objective has been reached, I would look to expand to other weapon systems. I'd rather have everyone performing at a high level on one platform than mediocre at both.

If your area of operation entails areas of wide open terrain, then perhaps the rifle would be the better decision. Based on the stated mission of the agency, I suspect the shotguns would be very appropriate for the terrain likely encountered. Given the agency has shotguns with which likely have a good deal of life left in them (after a freshening up), and I suspect most of the troops are at least familiar with their operation, I would likely look to keep the shotgun. My experience as a relatively new instructor is the majority of training (not qualifications) can be done in shorter distances with cheap bird-shot. My experience has been competent manipulation tends to be much more perishable than pure marksmanship for most users. For duty loadings, I highly recommend Flight Control loadings for buck, and slug is always an option.

The 870P, especially pre-Cerberus, has the reputation as being about as bomb-proof as possible for a firearm. I'd get an armorer up to speed and give the guns a once over and some new mag springs. Perhaps some upgrades if necessary, such as sighting and/or Knoxx stocks? I personally don't care for the Knoxx, but they are well liked by the majority of folks I train. They like the recoil reduction and variable length of pull. I just don't care for the propensity to punch oneself in the face with the receiver if the cheek is in the gap the receiver recoils into.

[deputyG23]

http://www.remingtonle.com/training/15schedule.htm

Scroll to the bottom and look for field schools (classes hosted at someones agency). There are some in PA and OH before the end of the year.

Found it, thanks. This gives me a starting point.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Another course for you to consider is Sully's SG armorer class. I have not been, but others I know who hosted and attended report good things. http://www.thedefensiveedge.com/

I didn't realize that Sully was doing shotgun classes. Thanks for posting that.

I've been to Sully's shotgun and AR armorer courses. I would go again.

[41magfan]

I know you didn't ask, but the pragmatic side of me would be inclined to use this opportunity to make the switch to rifles. 870's aren't a big deal to maintain, but making people really proficient with them can be tedious with so many small statured, non-gun folks wearing the uniform these days. The last agency I worked for has just recently relegated the SG to the role of a less-lethal delivery system (no real ammo even exist in inventory) and long-gun quals have gone much smoother. Personally, I think the troops are better armed for the same expenditure of time and money.