A small slice of Correct Vehicle Tactics

[RJ]

Thank you SLG for posting. Very informative.

I was kind of not prepared for Mr. McPhee to actually SHOOT THROUGH the windscreen. I was thinking it was his own vehicle and it was a passive demo of technique...so, wow.

Two immediate takeaways:

- Wear your seatbelt
- Shoot to the target - ignore deflection

[NEPAKevin]

Years ago, one of the guys I worked with was buddies with a LEO who was of the old school variety and one day when they were BSing and the subject of car guns came up. His thing was when ever he got a car assigned to him, he would take out his knife, and slice a slit in the seat into the foam where it would be convenient to reach and that was where he kept his back up car gun. The punch line was that he never told anyone else he did this or why and his Sargent and the Chief were always wondering why the cars were getting holes in the driver's seat below and slight to the side of the crotchal area.

[Paul Sharp]

Circumstances dictate tactics, tactics dictate technique.

In the LE world as well as solo surveillance/ep advanced observer stuff where you're driving slowly through rougher areas the secondary/tertiary pistol under the leg has long been acceptable practice for good reason.

The material John is showing in this clip is a different application of similar material however the circumstances are different. For this context, this is exactly how we were taught to stow the rifle when driving. In the surveillance and protection side of the things the drivers job is to drive. Everyone else handles their sector so the driver has no other responsibility as driving is the most proactive thing you can do to deal with an immediate threat. Stowing the rifle that manner won't cause the rifle to end up under your feet in a collision resulting from evasive actions. If the rifle does come loose it usually just moves forward against the base of the center console or up against the firewall. With the butt wedged between the seat and console the rifle can only move forward or backward in a straight line so it never gets near the pedals. A rollover? The rifle under your feet is the least of your worries.

The sling work as he unasses the car is pretty slick and I like that. I've always used Bennie Cooley's trick of rubber banding the sling to the rifle. You can still use the rifle to fight if needed and a quick snatch of the sling pops the rubber band off so you can sling up as needed.


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[Shellback]

The sling work as he unasses the car is pretty slick and I like that. I've always used Bennie Cooley's trick of rubber banding the sling to the rifle. You can still use the rifle to fight if needed and a quick snatch of the sling pops the rubber band off so you can sling up as needed.

Does it make more sense to sling the rifle prior to unbuckling or after? I'm thinking unbuckle first, and then sling the weapon, to help reduce the amount of possible entanglements.

[Dagga Boy]

Circumstances dictate tactics, tactics dictate technique.

In the LE world as well as solo surveillance/ep advanced observer stuff where you're driving slowly through rougher areas the secondary/tertiary pistol under the leg has long been acceptable practice for good reason.

The material John is showing in this clip is a different application of similar material however the circumstances are different. For this context, this is exactly how we were taught to stow the rifle when driving. In the surveillance and protection side of the things the drivers job is to drive. Everyone else handles their sector so the driver has no other responsibility as driving is the most proactive thing you can do to deal with an immediate threat. Stowing the rifle that manner won't cause the rifle to end up under your feet in a collision resulting from evasive actions. If the rifle does come loose it usually just moves forward against the base of the center console or up against the firewall. With the butt wedged between the seat and console the rifle can only move forward or backward in a straight line so it never gets near the pedals. A rollover? The rifle under your feet is the least of your worries.

The sling work as he unasses the car is pretty slick and I like that. I've always used Bennie Cooley's trick of rubber banding the sling to the rifle. You can still use the rifle to fight if needed and a quick snatch of the sling pops the rubber band off so you can sling up as needed.


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I agree and was simply trying to point out different context and applications. There is a bit of a disconnect sometimes about application and we tend to go with our experience and what has worked. As a cop, spent a ton of time talking to people at the window of my car....often gang member assholes in alleys and small streets (yea, I know....."I would never let anyone near my car".....okay, then you never got good info or the pulse of your beat). As a protection agent and working witness protection, I rode around with a Steyr AUG stowed exactly as dictated in the video. This included an attempted hit on our convoy during a witness movement, so I "get" that application. For a Joe Citizen driving around in a bad section of town..........I seem to think a second gun under the leg, or even better secured in an accessible vehicle mount to access the gun without any real contortions, or what is often really important, a discretionary presentation where the gun is in hand ready to go without a draw and nobody sees it. A bit different than full counter ambush, but very likely a more usable application. AGAIN, not countering "Shrek", simply adding experience that dictates that one means of in vehicle stowage is not as negative when done with a secondary gun and is very applicable based on actual real proven usage and not theory.
One of the reasons I am a big advocate of using a fanny pack is that I have very good seated access and vehicle access, where I spend a very significant amount of time. For most urban metropolitan LEO's, they spend an inordinate amount of time vehicle born in many crappy places.......like full time job numbers of hours driving around in crap. It is one area where a good tidbit of info has been gleaned from through both success and failure. Also, our undercover folks have also developed a ton of solid info for this type of work. I find it interesting that one of the most accomplished and successful LEO gunfighters of our time pretty much always had a dedicated car gun to supplement his holstered primary, often a twin. I know because I now own those guns and have had extensive conversations about their use and debriefed on how they were utilized.

[Paul Sharp]

Does it make more sense to sling the rifle prior to unbuckling or after? I'm thinking unbuckle first, and then sling the weapon, to help reduce the amount of possible entanglements.

I was taught sling after seat belt for the reason you posted. Once you're out of the seat belt the advantage to slinging up before moving out of the car is if you catch the rifle on anything like the steering wheel/dash area, you don't drop the rifle if it gets knocked out of hand. The counter argument to that is, if you get caught up on stuff on the way out, it only knocks the rifle around but it's not attached to you so your balance/movement isn't affected as much.

Like everything we do the only way to know what way works best for us is to do it. A lot. Start nice and slow, round off the edges, get the movement down then start putting it on a timer. This way we figure out which method allows us to make the transition from vehicle to feet on the ground ready to effectively fight in the least amount of time.

It's funny, I've seen this term hobbyist thrown at guys that focus on the details, putting those details in a timer, and striving to save time anywhere we can., as if it's an insult. This is something I've heard referred to, by actual professionals in the field, as "micro improvements". Guys that spend a lot of time thinking about how to efficiently move from one space to another such as; hall to room, vehicle to ground, interior to exterior. I've watched these guys focus on things like when to sling up and why. Hell, I've watched guys examine and reexamine the position of their elbows as they've worked in moving a person from the house to a vehicle. I've watched guys work for over 2 hours on moving a small group of people less than 30 feet from a building to a waiting vehicle. Hobbyist?? Poser please. That's the mark of a professional. I'm happy to see folks on this board pursuing perfection in the details. Shaving those seconds off our overall time is what gives us a little more time within the "par time" provided by the offenders. SLG, DB, and others in this thread discussing the details of context, and applications of various approaches to these circumstances IS what separates the professionals from the hobbyists. Professionals seek perfection in every aspect and understand it all matters. Hobbyists think good enough is perfect.

Well, that turned into a rant...


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[Paul Sharp]

I agree and was simply trying to point out different context and applications. There is a bit of a disconnect sometimes about application and we tend to go with our experience and what has worked. As a cop, spent a ton of time talking to people at the window of my car....often gang member assholes in alleys and small streets (yea, I know....."I would never let anyone near my car".....okay, then you never got good info or the pulse of your beat). As a protection agent and working witness protection, I rode around with a Steyr AUG stowed exactly as dictated in the video. This included an attempted hit on our convoy during a witness movement, so I "get" that application. For a Joe Citizen driving around in a bad section of town..........I seem to think a second gun under the leg, or even better secured in an accessible vehicle mount to access the gun without any real contortions, or what is often really important, a discretionary presentation where the gun is in hand ready to go without a draw and nobody sees it. A bit different than full counter ambush, but very likely a more usable application. AGAIN, not countering "Shrek", simply adding experience that dictates that one means of in vehicle stowage is not as negative when done with a secondary gun and is very applicable based on actual real proven usage and not theory.
One of the reasons I am a big advocate of using a fanny pack is that I have very good seated access and vehicle access, where I spend a very significant amount of time. For most urban metropolitan LEO's, they spend an inordinate amount of time vehicle born in many crappy places.......like full time job numbers of hours driving around in crap. It is one area where a good tidbit of info has been gleaned from through both success and failure. Also, our undercover folks have also developed a ton of solid info for this type of work. I find it interesting that one of the most accomplished and successful LEO gunfighters of our time pretty much always had a dedicated car gun to supplement his holstered primary, often a twin. I know because I now own those guns and have had extensive conversations about their use and debriefed on how they were utilized.

I'm with you dude, except for the fanny pack. I'm not retired yet. [emoji4]


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[Kimura]

Interesting thread. Hearing different approaches from people in different circumstances is always interesting for me. In a video, you have to show a technique that works/has worked for you. But I've also heard Shrek say that it isn't a cookie cutter world and different approaches to different problems are necessary. I'm obviously paraphrasing, but that's the gist.

Also, if you have questions for Shrek, he makes himself accessible to everyone via Facebook. He does a short written Q&A thing usually on Wednesday night. And does a live video hour almost every Friday. He calls it Friday Night Live and you can send him questions that he'll answer.

[SLG]

I too sling up after getting the seatbelt off. Usually only after getting out of the car as well.

Paul really hit that one out of the park. I think that there are points of diminishing returns, for professionals as well as hobbyists, but getting as good as possible at the micro stuff is what makes the macro stuff flow so well, especially under stress. It's why full time teams should be so much better than part time teams. It takes a lot of discretionary training time to really dive deep.

[Paul Sharp]

I too sling up after getting the seatbelt off. Usually only after getting out of the car as well.

Paul really hit that one out of the park. I think that there are points of diminishing returns, for professionals as well as hobbyists, but getting as good as possible at the micro stuff is what makes the macro stuff flow so well, especially under stress. It's why full time teams should be so much better than part time teams. It takes a lot of discretionary training time to really dive deep.

Thanks dude!

I sling up after getting out of the car as well. If the rifle gets hung up it's easier for me to unf*ck myself sans sling.