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Thread: Gabe White Standards

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    I even added them to The Chart, because I love adding things to The Chart, rough as it may be:
    I had to eyeball your chart for awhile to understand it. I get the rough estimation part. I am curious also on where I may fall if / when I can do some competition shooting. Locally we only have IPSC and I am not overly thrilled with the local scene. Of course I have shot with a lot of classified shooters and I have shot various qualifiers but you never can tell until you get out there and start doing it. I will be traveling a bit more for work and I am hoping to maybe shoot some matches while traveling. Not sure if it will work out, but we'll see.

  2. #92
    Surf's video:

    Shoot more, post less...

  3. #93
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    I had to eyeball your chart for awhile to understand it. I get the rough estimation part. I am curious also on where I may fall if / when I can do some competition shooting. Locally we only have IPSC and I am not overly thrilled with the local scene. Of course I have shot with a lot of classified shooters and I have shot various qualifiers but you never can tell until you get out there and start doing it. I will be traveling a bit more for work and I am hoping to maybe shoot some matches while traveling. Not sure if it will work out, but we'll see.
    I like the chart and I think it is a good representation of general skill levels, but I have found that competition (IPSC/USPSA) sometimes does not translate well to the various other drills and tests on that chart. I know legit ranked master level IPSC shooters who can't shoot a 5 second fast. But I know I was a six second(ish) FAST shooter when I started IPSC. I think my first match I shot 45% of the Production div. winner, which is C class. It was a big kick in the pants for me!

    IPSC/USPSA is about so much more than technical shooting skills. Things like shooting into and out of position, shooting on the move and stage management, are much more important in the action shooting sports and really don't translate well to most of the static drills etc. on that chart. It's also the best situation (training/practice) I know of to induce stress on a shooter. I have seen folks shaking before shooting a stage because they are so nervous.

    I think you will have a blast if you can get to some matches and your excellent technical skills will translate very well to most of the qualifiers. I would be very interested to hear your experiences with your matches. I know IPSC has made (and motivated) me to be a better overall shooter.
    Last edited by Clobbersaurus; 05-06-2017 at 09:56 AM. Reason: Clarification
    "Next time somebody says USPSA or IPSC is all hosing, junk punch them." - Les Pepperoni
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  4. #94
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    I had to eyeball your chart for awhile to understand it. I get the rough estimation part. I am curious also on where I may fall if / when I can do some competition shooting. Locally we only have IPSC and I am not overly thrilled with the local scene. Of course I have shot with a lot of classified shooters and I have shot various qualifiers but you never can tell until you get out there and start doing it. I will be traveling a bit more for work and I am hoping to maybe shoot some matches while traveling. Not sure if it will work out, but we'll see.
    That chart is really just a novelty, but I kind of like it because it's the best attempt I've seen to compare the technical skill performance of different disciplines, sports, professions, etc., on some known and widespread drills and courses. It started out as a graphic from some outfit called Midwest Marksman, comparing the skill levels they'd expect for students coming out of their defensive handgun training program, to "typical" skill levels of police, military, and different ranks of USPSA and IDPA shooters. I and many others estimated where other elements should go and added them, even including John Hearne's work on the subject of Overlearning. And now I stuck my own tests on there too. Fun! There is lots of imprecision in it, but it's still the best comparison attempt I've seen.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
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  5. #95
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clobbersaurus View Post
    I like the chart and I think it is a good representation of general skill levels, but I have found that competition (IPSC/USPSA) sometimes does not translate well to the various other drills and tests on that chart. I know legit ranked master level IPSC shooters who can't shoot a 5 second fast. But I know I was a six second(ish) FAST shooter when I started IPSC. I think my first match I shot 45% of the Production div. winner, which is C class. It was a big kick in the pants for me!

    IPSC/USPSA is about so much more than technical shooting skills. Things like shooting into and out of position, shooting on the move and stage management, are much more important in the action shooting sports and really don't translate well to most of the static drills etc. on that chart. It's also the best situation (training/practice) I know of to induce stress on a shooter. I have seen folks shaking before shooting a stage because they are so nervous.

    I think you will have a blast if you can get to some matches and your excellent technical skills will translate very well to most of the qualifiers. I would be very interested to hear your experiences with your matches. I know IPSC has made (and motivated) me to be a better overall shooter.
    That's a great post Clobbersauras and I agree with you. One subtlety I'd probably add is that the Classifier stages in USPSA are very much about stand-and-shoot skills, and those Classifier stages overwhelmingly are the mechanism that establish people's Classifications. The overall sport isn't remotely about stand-and-shoot skills, though they are part of it and are still the central element, even with all the layers added on top of them in field courses. And since the shooting is still the central element, the Classification system still basically works correctly even though it doesn't test what we would consider to be the "match skills" that are so important in placing well in actual matches. And I don't mean game-only stuff when I say match skills, I mean the overall mental and physical act of integrating excellent shooting with all the movement and complexity involved in USPSA field courses.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com

  6. #96
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    That's a great post Clobbersauras and I agree with you. One subtlety I'd probably add is that the Classifier stages in USPSA are very much about stand-and-shoot skills, and those Classifier stages overwhelmingly are the mechanism that establish people's Classifications. The overall sport isn't remotely about stand-and-shoot skills, though they are part of it and are still the central element, even with all the layers added on top of them in field courses. And since the shooting is still the central element, the Classification system still basically works correctly even though it doesn't test what we would consider to be the "match skills" that are so important in placing well in actual matches. And I don't mean game-only stuff when I say match skills, I mean the overall mental and physical act of integrating excellent shooting with all the movement and complexity involved in USPSA field courses.
    That is an excellent point. I come from my post above with an IPSC perspective where our classification is based on match performance rather than classifier stages. I have often wondered if it is harder to reach a certain level in USPSA than IPSC or vice versa. I know I have read a lot about "paper GM's" in USPSA who do well in classifiers and not so well in match placement. I have also heard USPSA GM's say that it is harder to live up to the GM title, as in placing well at matches, than it is to get the GM ranking.

    With IPSC though, you can reach a GM status based on the participants in your Qualifier area. So you could have an instance of big fish in a little pond GM. This is perhaps a good topic for it's own thread, instead of bogging this excellent thread down.
    "Next time somebody says USPSA or IPSC is all hosing, junk punch them." - Les Pepperoni
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  7. #97
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSparks909 View Post
    Surf's video:

    Again, Surf, many thanks for shooting these - it's always great to get to see you shoot. I know you had a rough time with the grip, but you still did well, and I look forward to hearing about it when you shoot these in the future.

    BTW, a good way to game, I mean achieve tactical advantage , with these tests and protocols, is to shoot from AIWB concealed to get the bonus but still have a pretty fast draw. The three things to do to get the best score, in order, are: shoot clean, have a fast draw, and splits and transition times are the last and least important thing. Though it all has to come together with very little error to hit the Turbo level.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com

  8. #98
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clobbersaurus View Post
    That is an excellent point. I come from my post above with an IPSC perspective where our classification is based on match performance rather than classifier stages. I have often wondered if it is harder to reach a certain level in USPSA than IPSC or vice versa. I know I have read a lot about "paper GM's" in USPSA who do well in classifiers and not so well in match placement. I have also heard USPSA GM's say that it is harder to live up to the GM title, as in placing well at matches, than it is to get the GM ranking.

    With IPSC though, you can reach a GM status based on the participants in your Qualifier area. So you could have an instance of big fish in a little pond GM. This is perhaps a good topic for it's own thread, instead of bogging this excellent thread down.
    Oh wow, that's really interesting - I didn't know that IPSC Classification came from match performance. I have often wondered how things would be in USPSA if they established our Classifications that way.

    I think the whole "paper GM" thing is way overblown. I'm sure there are a few out there, but really, I've never personally seen a GM-ranked shooter who wasn't a GREAT shooter.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com

  9. #99
    Surf,

    What targets are you using in your video?
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  10. #100
    Warren training targets. IDPA paster. The head is a 5x5 and the body is only a 7" circle. I add a 3x5 zone to the head and an 8" circle. For this drill I also added a 4" circle head zone. I have heavy cardstock circles, squares and rectangles of various sizes that I can quickly trace with a sharpie if I want to add a hit zone(s) to any target.

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