I've been closely following the Beretta 1301 thread and expect to purchase one in the coming year.Originally Posted by Jay585
I've been closely following the Beretta 1301 thread and expect to purchase one in the coming year.
If I were buying a current production shotgun, I would buy a Beretta 1301 as it is the best balance of price, features, and quality available.
That being said, in a recent class, I ran a drill with five targets at 15 yards distance spaced a few yards apart. The shotgun was loaded to gunbox/cruiser/storage ready with four rounds. The shooter had to hit the first four targets, combat load a round, and hit the 5th target. I shot it with a student's 1301, and I shot it with a used 870P that I recently purchased. I was a full second faster with the 870P. A couple of factors played into this. I have run maybe 20-30 rounds through a 1301. The recoil impulse is different than the Benelli M1 (the only semi with which I have significant trigger time), and I have difficulty seeing the sights on the 1301 against a black background. I have decades of experience with the 870.
In discussing the above with my preferred firearms training guru, he pointed out that with multiple shots on the same target that the semi will outrun the pump, but a skilled pumpgunner can make up the difference on multiple targets.
I think the real advantage of a semi is the ability to go to suboptimal shooting positions without having to work the action. Everything else is a wash.
I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.
For smaller people, other advantages of the semi auto, at least with the Beretta 1301, include lighter weight (compared to a Remington 870), and not having to have as long of a reach with one's support arm, since there is no pump to manually cycle. These factors significantly reduce smaller person upper body fatigue when practicing, conducting a search, or holding an aggressive low ready for extended periods of time.
Beretta 1301
FN SLP
Last edited by Oukaapie; 10-09-2016 at 12:06 AM.
I recently took a shotgun class with Scott "Uncle Scotty" Reitz's company, ITTS. Highly recommended if you're in the area. This was their intro to shotgun class and it was interesting to see folks with different experience levels run different types of shotguns under some degree of time pressure (face offs against steel targets, etc). Some had taken multiple shotgun classes before and some had literally never fired a shotgun before the class. Most of the shotguns were 870s, 590s, and quite a few Benelli M4s. I may have seen one M2.
The primary instructors were three current LAPD SWAT operators. Although they have access to pretty much whatever they want weapon-wise, they said the first guy through the door on their team still carries a Benelli M4. Not surprisingly, they described the shotgun wounds they've seen on the street as "devastating." Their use of the 870 is limited to breaching and less-than-lethal rounds (although LAPD patrol cops still use the 870).
Pertinent to the OP's question, none of the shotguns in the class had a mechanical malfunction. There were many user-induced "malfunctions" arising from how manipulation-intensive a shotgun is, to include forgetting to cycle the pump action before the next shot (I saw this quite a few times), loading shells backwards, and trying to take a shot with the safety still on. My observations are that if using a pump action is a subconscious operation for you, then you can be very quick and efficient. Seeing Scott Reitz manipulate the 870 was eye opening.
If you need to think about operating a pump action while you're doing it, you'll need to get more reps or may just be better off with a semi-auto. I think the semi-auto is just easier to use because there's less body motion involved so you can concentrate on sight picture and trigger press. All the more so if you are shooting from prone, around barriers, anything that might be more awkward with the need to operate a pump.
That said, I ran the class with my old Wingmaster that I've updated with the new shell carrier/bolt design, new springs, Wilson Combat safety, etc. Only gun in the class with wood furniture. Did just fine with it and it ran perfectly. I really want a 1301 but can't make up my mind on which model. Tough to pass up the Tactical at $800 shipped, though.
Last edited by Xrslug; 10-09-2016 at 11:07 AM.
This is why I quit using an 870 in competition and went to a Benelli. In some stages pump-semi didn't matter at all, because it was really about how fast you could reload. But when I was shooting under barricades, out of cars, etc, the Benelli was easier to use.
However, the shotgun in my bedroom is an 870 kept in cruiser ready state. I've spent so much time shooting pumps that the manual of arms will be the last thing I remember when I'm in a nursing home.
"Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA
Beware of my temper, and the dog that I've found...
The pump gun is a useful tool. We have three Remington 870 shotguns in the house at the moment. One, a Wingmaster, belongs to my wife, and is her home-defense long gun of choice. She is simply not interested in learning to use any semi-auto weapons, except for one pistol that she really likes. The other two are both 870P Police models, one of which goes to work with me five or six nights a week.
I had a Benelli M1 Super 90, during the Nineties. A small part, a washer, was missing, upon delivery. To their credit, HK, the distributor at that time, mailed a washer to me, quickly. During a "select slug" class, the safety button froze on the on-safe position; it took a mallet to un-stick the darn thing. Then, I broke two screws while trying to adjust the rear sight. Feeling jinxed, I sold that Benelli, with full disclosure of the problems, to another officer at that class, and reverted to pump guns
Having said that, I may be about to add a Benelli M2. One reason is because, after about three decades of never short-stroking while pumping, I did so, several times. Before this, I had seen fellow police officers, larger and stronger than me, short-stroke their pump guns, and I felt a bit of contempt for their weak gun-handling. Then, it happened to me, and then happened again, and on occasion, again. While this is largely a software problem, a simple hardware fix can be a shorter stock, so after installing a Magpul stock, at the recommendation of an instructor, the short-stroking was no more, though of course, I trained quite a bit, too, to get my rhythm back.
Another reason to go with a semi-auto is because a pump can be difficult to operate while prone. I knew this, but did not worry too much, because I foresaw a low probability of engaging while prone, until the night I flopped down onto my belly to engage two drug dealers hiding under a house. They had just been in a gunfight with narcotics officers, so this was serious. I knew I had one shot before I would have to shift position a bit to cycle the action, or perhaps transition to pistol, and I was looking at two desperate felons. (They surrendered, thankfully, having ditched their Glocks a short distance away, and one having a bloody arm hanging uselessly, anyway.)
A third reason to go with the Benelli M2 option is that my right shoulder and hand are now aging and ailing, perhaps compromising my capabilities to operate the pump effectively. (I am lefty with long guns.)
Adding a Benelli M2 is not a sure thing, for me, but for someone not already invested in a pump gun system, an autoloading shotgun might be a best practice.
I have only mentioned the Benelli M1/M2 and Remington 870 because these are the only shotguns my command staff will let me carry. There are other good guns out there.
Last edited by Rex G; 10-09-2016 at 11:56 AM.
I like shotguns. I find them to be fun and interesting. I'm no Patrick Kelley but I've run a fair number of rounds through shotguns in hunting, sporting clays, and most recently, 3 gun. For most things, I prefer an auto and a Benelli Inertia auto at that. Just dead simple and reliable. However, I recently switched from a 14" Benelli Entry Gun to an 870 in my HD role. One of the drivers was malfunction clearing. Autos (especially inertia autos) are more ammo and weight sensitive. The thing is, an auto relies on the ammo to cycle the gun and due to the nature of shotshell ammo (crimped plastic hull) you get more dimensional variance. Not only that, when an auto gets jammed, it can take 3 or 4 steps to clear, sometimes requiring more hands and fingers than the average human has. It's also faster to get an empty pump up and running again.
Just another reason to consider the manually-operated shotgun.
Last edited by ASH556; 10-09-2016 at 02:50 PM.
Food Court Apprentice
Semper Paratus certified AR15 armorer
A manually operated shotgun is generally quite accepted by the "public" as a defensive weapon...
A recent discussion of home defense weapons occurred here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrGL8wexJdA
Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie
I pretty much agree with everything in this thread, but as usual, it is the man, not the gun. I like them all, I use them all, I still grab a 5.56 above all.
Last edited by SLG; 10-09-2016 at 06:47 PM.
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