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Thread: How important/relevant is NATO?

  1. #31
    Glock Collective Assimile Suvorov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaiHu View Post
    Distraction from all the other failed policies of this administration?
    I think it runs deeper than that.

  2. #32
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Not going into the nuances of the Syrian conflict. A separate, but important point. What is one of the growing threats to Russian economic and social "stability", as they continue to grow? Radical Islamic Terrorism> Which has been a threat to Russia for decades prior to being a republic. In these sense, they and the US are a lot alike. Radical Islam presents no existential threat to either country, but represents a constant thorn in the side that can be used to distract from other issues. The occasional saber rattling by Putin makes the continued existence of NATO assured, which I think suits Putin fine, because it allows him to appear to be a threat when he isn't.

    Simultaneously, our current administration is a foreign policy joke. The worst part is, if HRC gets elected, our foreign policy will decline even more. I hate to think that after 12-16 years of deplorable foreign policy, how long it will take to recover. Just thinking, JFK ruined foreign policy in the U.S. and Johnson continued until '68. And it still took Nixon the better part of four years to solve just some of the problems caused by those two.

  3. #33
    Glock Collective Assimile Suvorov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    The occasional saber rattling by Putin makes the continued existence of NATO assured, which I think suits Putin fine, because it allows him to appear to be a threat when he isn't.
    There is ZERO question here. NATO moving into regions that were historically part of the Russian Empire and later Soviet Union and Putin's eagerness to stand in defiance earns him big points with many a Russian despite the problems with the economy and society in general.

  4. #34
    Member BaiHu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suvorov View Post
    I think it runs deeper than that.
    That explains Putin, but taking over dirty fossil fuels should be music to Obama's big ears, right? Why he's Mr SolarWindPower!

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    Fairness leads to extinction much faster than harsh parameters.

  5. #35
    Glock Collective Assimile Suvorov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    My question is, what's Putin's long term strategy for Europe? What's the motive behind his threat?
    Stalin and the Soviet Union mainly wanted a nice, big, friendly armed buffer zone to avoid a repeat of the Surprise of 1941.
    Since Putin isn't ideologically linked to International Marxist-Leninism, converting the world by force is pretty much out.
    Grabbing the parts of Eastern Europe that were historically part of Russia, such as in the Ukraine or the Baltic, that seems more of a likely goal.
    Thoughts?
    I'm a half breed. Mom was American (German-Dutch) and my Father was from Savastopol (and NEVER considered himself a Ukrainian), so I grew up living with and appreciating the clash of the cultures. I recently ran across this blog by Peter Hitchens. I really think it does a tremendous job to explaining the "Russian" to the Western Anglican mind. At least from my anti-communist but pro-Russian family perspective.

    Worth a quick read: https://www.firstthings.com/article/...ld-war-is-over

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Suvorov View Post
    . . .my Father was from Sevastopol (and NEVER considered himself a Ukrainian . . .
    Well, Crimea was never Ukrainian (until it was "given" to Ukraine, probably to help brake Ukrainian nationalism), but some Ukrainians did live there.

    In truth, though, it was also never very Russian. The cities were a mixture of all sort of people, and until Russia conquered it, it was run by the Crimean Tatars--descendants of one of Genghis Khan's hordes and for much of their existence theoretically subject to the Ottoman Sultan.

    Russia's conquest of Crimea stopped the Tatar slave raids, which had destabilized Russia, Ukraine, Poland, the Hapsburgs, and places like Wallachia for centuries. It was a good thing for the world and brought free Russians into Crimea. But ethnic Russians probably never were a majority there (although Russian speakers of a wide variety of nationalities were and still are).

    It would be interesting to see where the Crimeans would chose to go if there was a free vote. Becoming independent and turning it into an international vacation destination might be a good option, but who would subsidize it in the meantime? Sadly, Crimea should be a paradise but the commies managed to turn it, along with the rest of the USSR into a dependent slum.

  7. #37
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeep View Post
    Becoming independent and turning it into an international vacation destination might be a good option, but who would subsidize it in the meantime? Sadly, Crimea should be a paradise but the commies managed to turn it, along with the rest of the USSR into a dependent slum.
    Same people who subsidize the majority of the world's vacation destinations, criminals.

    Frankly, Crimea could just be the eastern equivalent to Las Vegas. A few nice casinos, extreme privacy laws in banking, limited governmental oversight. Any of the various drug lords/Russian mob lords could easily subsidize the development in the region. But only if political moves were made to guarantee Crimea's independence. Just think...Cuba circa 1957.

    If Greece didn't have all of those state-dependent Greeks living there, I can imagine a number of criminals would be looking to invest in the region...which has pretty lax gambling laws and minimal criminal enforcement. But, alas, the Greeks are defacto socialists.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 09-30-2016 at 02:44 PM.

  8. #38
    Member LostDuke's Avatar
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    Sometimes I feel am traveling in time. History does indeed repeat himself, or at least risks to.

    Thinking that having allies doesn't matter anymore, that reneging on our most important military alliance is dangerous bordering ludicrous. Talking about history, some might want to read up on US isolationism prior to WW2. Every time the US turns its back on Europe, thinks that an ocean is better at keeping us safe than an alliance, it ends poorly indeed.

    Putin's Russia is no joke, is a real and actual threat backed by a strong nuclear arsenal and a renewed willingness to matter and regain former USSR territory. If Georgia wasn't a wake up call I don't know what is. Nato is as necessary today as it ever was, and making it a matter of contributing finances is such a myopic way to approach the matter that calling it ludicrous is necessary and patriotic.

    Ronald Reagan, a person who relates to Trump as chocolate does to manure, said:
    Our military strength is a prerequisite to peace, but let it be clear we maintain this strength in the hope it will never be used, for the ultimate determinant in the struggle that’s now going on in the world will not be bombs and rockets, but a test of wills and ideas, a trial of spiritual resolve, the values we hold, the beliefs we cherish, the ideals to which we are dedicated.I’ve often wondered about the shyness of some of us in the West about standing for these ideals that have done so much to ease the plight of man and the hardships of our imperfect world.
    Instead of standing on the shoulders of giants, we think we can forget that today the worse issue pertaining to French beaches is whether burkinis are admissible. After our isolationism, they swallowed thousands of American lives at Omaha and Juno. Let's take 70 years of peace in Europe for granted because it has happened plenty before in European history to have such long periods without warfare. Let's spit on a critical alliance, invoked by our allies only once after 9/11, that protects us and protects democracy. Let's forget that with all the talk of China today Europe is still by far our largest trade partner, whose security is a vital matter of national interest for us.

    Instead, on the glorious steps of a bankrupted casino magnate, let's discover that alliances don't matter, that peace in Europe doesn't matter, that we can build walls to keep people out and spit on allies to keep expenses down.

    To quote the National review again,

    Trump, whose nickel-and-dime gestalt could only have come from a repeatedly failed casino operator, is a creature in search of petty advantages and small paydays. As such, he suggested yesterday that the United States might forsake its commitment to NATO — our most important military alliance — because he believes that our NATO allies are not carrying their share of the expense. Trump’s mind processes information the way a horse processes oats, and the product is exactly the same.
    Reagan would have called this bullshit, would have stood beside our allies, would have reaffirmed our commitment to democracy and peace.

    Instead, this jackal, who thinks himself so smart because he doesn't pay taxes.

    We were the Leopards, the Lions, those who'll take our place will be little jackals, hyenas; and the whole lot of us, Leopards, jackals, and sheep, we'll all go on thinking ourselves the salt of the earth.

    Tomasi di Lampedusa, The Leopard.
    Last edited by LostDuke; 09-30-2016 at 03:14 PM.

  9. #39
    Gray Hobbyist Wondering Beard's Avatar
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    I say give Crimea back to the Scythians.

  10. #40
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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