380 acp vs 22 magnum?

[Hauptmann]

This question takes us off course regarding my original question,but I will ask anyway. 380 acp vs 32 acp in having to shoot a bad guy?

A little point of reference....... WWII saw the largest, and most widespread use of pistol calibers history will ever see with its wide SMG use. There will never again be another conflict that can show the huge amount of observation effectivness(or lack there of) of pistol calibers. At the end of the war, virtually all countries that were using a caliber smaller than .36 caliber(9mm/.38) increased caliber size to 9mm. Allied countries using calibers larger than .36 caliber mostly went down to 9mm. Even the US Army ordinance considered the 9mm to be a superior cartridge for military use, and favored conversions.......but budget cuts at the end of the war and surpluses of .45acp SMGs, 1911s, and ammo made that impossible. Modern JHP ammo has only made the .36 caliber cartridges more effective.........but not so for the .380acp which is essentially a dead end cartridge for technological development.

You are pushing the limit using a .380acp as it is. Don't make it worse using anything smaller than that.

[lawnguy]

A little point of reference....... WWII saw the largest, and most widespread use of pistol calibers history will ever see with its wide SMG use. There will never again be another conflict that can show the huge amount of observation effectivness(or lack there of) of pistol calibers. At the end of the war, virtually all countries that were using a caliber smaller than .36 caliber(9mm/.38) increased caliber size to 9mm. Allied countries using calibers larger than .36 caliber mostly went down to 9mm. Even the US Army ordinance considered the 9mm to be a superior cartridge for military use, and favored conversions.......but budget cuts at the end of the war and surpluses of .45acp SMGs, 1911s, and ammo made that impossible. Modern JHP ammo has only made the .36 caliber cartridges more effective.........but not so for the .380acp which is essentially a dead end cartridge for technological development.

You are pushing the limit using a .380acp as it is. Don't make it worse using anything smaller than that.

Very Interesting! Thanks for sharing the info.

[Velo Dog]

Carry whatever...






...Practice eye shooting

[john c]

You do know that the Rogers School starts out every student in their intro course with a S&W 317, and they shoot that for two days, before transitioning to a semi-auto .22 M&P, before progressing to a 9mm. I have shot 25,000 +/- rounds through my training 317, and have never cleaned it, although even if cleaning was an issue, I am not sure what that has to do with a BUG that needs to go seven rounds between cleaning.

Are the initial 317s 1 7/8ths barrels, or 3 inch barrels? What sights, if any?

[Duelist]

A little point of reference....... WWII saw the largest, and most widespread use of pistol calibers history will ever see with its wide SMG use. There will never again be another conflict that can show the huge amount of observation effectivness(or lack there of) of pistol calibers. At the end of the war, virtually all countries that were using a caliber smaller than .36 caliber(9mm/.38) increased caliber size to 9mm. Allied countries using calibers larger than .36 caliber mostly went down to 9mm. Even the US Army ordinance considered the 9mm to be a superior cartridge for military use, and favored conversions.......but budget cuts at the end of the war and surpluses of .45acp SMGs, 1911s, and ammo made that impossible. Modern JHP ammo has only made the .36 caliber cartridges more effective.........but not so for the .380acp which is essentially a dead end cartridge for technological development.

You are pushing the limit using a .380acp as it is. Don't make it worse using anything smaller than that.

I assumed everyone knew that the .380ACP (9x17, 9mm Kurz) is exactly the same diameter as the 9mm Parabellum (9x19) and the .38 ACP and the .38 Super, and the 9x21, and 9x23, and 9mm Largo. But not quite the same diameter as the 9mm Makarov (9x18), which instead of being .355" like the bulk of 9mm cartridges, is .363, and was adopted after WWII (and served for decades) by one of the major powers, and was theoretically a slight increase in power over the .380. Slight. Very slight.

There is only one truth: hit the target. All the rest may be interesting, but if the fundamental one truth does not happen, none of the rest matters. At all.

[GJM]

Are the initial 317s 1 7/8ths barrels, or 3 inch barrels? What sights, if any?

I believe RSS Is using the 3 1/8 inch barrel, with FO front and adjustable rear. Mine is that configuration, but with a solid front, that I painted orange.

[RichY]

Deleted. See below.

[RichY]

While the first part of that quote applies to me too, I've probably not fired anywhere near the amount of ammunition you have. That said, my experience is decidedly contrary. I have difficulty remembering the last time I encountered a bad primer in centerfire ammunition, but with rimfire ammo misfires seem pretty common place.

The most surprising failures occurred last year when I dug up an older 500 round case of CCI Mini-Mags from the back of my ammo cabinet. While this ammunition has normally been very reliable, I experienced multiple failures to fire with this batch. All rounds fired just fine when they were re-chambered so that the striker mark was well away from where the striker would hit (which is how things typically go with rimfire ammunition that didn't fire the first try, in my experience). This makes me wonder if there are simply quality fluctuations from batch to batch, or if rimfire ammunition simply doesn't age as well as centerfire ammo? This would certainly explain the differences in experiences, since I doubt rimfire ammunition travels to over here in much of a haste.



Awesome summary.

A few years ago a friend back where we used to live gave me a box of 50 Remington Mohawk 22's made in the 60's. The original owner had bought a lot of it back then, got out of shooting for decades, and then decided to get back into it. I saw them shoot a lot of it at the range prior to giving me a box of it, and I put it away, as we were in the process of retiring to another part of the country. I have no idea how he stored it over the years, but he does live in a very humid part of the country. Earlier this year I found that box of ammo and took I took it out in the national forest to see how it shot. It went bang every single time -- just like the rest of it I watched them shoot sox to eight years earlier. Seems to me it works fine after decades of storage. It's possible that quality control today isn't what it once was, but in this one case, it worked fine.

Additionally, I secured some 22's my grandfather kept in his garage. I got them sometime around the time he passed away, which would have been 1983. They were very old boxes, and my guess is they were from back in the early to mid-50's. Included in these boxes was an old box of Winchester 25 acp. To my knowledge, and that of relatives alive at the time, my grandfather never owned a 25 automatic. Based on the box, they were also made sometime in the early to mid-50's. Like the 22'a they were stored with, they go bang every time! Since they were kept in a drawer in a garage in southern Illinois for who knows how long, it always amazed me they still fired.

Finally, my father-in-law, now deceased for nearly twenty years, left behind some very old boxes of 22 Long Rifle, 22 Long, and 9mm. The 9mm appears to have been made shortly after WWII. The 22 Longs? Who knows? They no longer look very good. They do still shoot! Look bad, but shoot! They were all stored in a leaky basement in NW Indiana, and I do not remember ever getting a misfire from any of this old ammo. I still have a little of it left and sometime in the near future will finally shoot is all, but I keep them primarily for the old, long out of print, boxes they came in.

[RichY]

A little point of reference....... WWII saw the largest, and most widespread use of pistol calibers history will ever see with its wide SMG use. There will never again be another conflict that can show the huge amount of observation effectivness(or lack there of) of pistol calibers. At the end of the war, virtually all countries that were using a caliber smaller than .36 caliber(9mm/.38) increased caliber size to 9mm. Allied countries using calibers larger than .36 caliber mostly went down to 9mm. Even the US Army ordinance considered the 9mm to be a superior cartridge for military use, and favored conversions.......but budget cuts at the end of the war and surpluses of .45acp SMGs, 1911s, and ammo made that impossible. Modern JHP ammo has only made the .36 caliber cartridges more effective.........but not so for the .380acp which is essentially a dead end cartridge for technological development.

You are pushing the limit using a .380acp as it is. Don't make it worse using anything smaller than that.

True, but not all their police forces changed over. While in Germany and Austria in 1985, I remember seeing the officers at the border crossing all wearing Walther PP's or PPk's. Not sure what caliber they were in, as I had learned by then not to ask, even though I spoke German fairly fluently.

[Tamara]

Having fired tens of thousands of both rimfire and centerfire throughout my life, the idea that rimfire is less reliable is contrary to my experience.

It's not to mine.