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Thread: Lawful Self-Defense to "Run-Down" Rioters?

  1. #21
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    I think being taken hostage by any rioting mob justifies trying to escape, if they get run over in the process, their blood is on their own heads.
    Interesting tack. Does being surrounded by a mob of clearly agitated persons who are illegally obstructing traffic and refusing to allow safe passage for those in transit, constitute being "taken hostage." For the folks with badges and papers that say "law degree" on them, I'd like like to hear your thoughts. If the parameters are met for being "taken hostage" what actions/recourse can be taken to free yourself? Is homicide of those who hold you hostage allowed? If not under what circumstances.
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  2. #22
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSP972 View Post
    Pp

    Exactly so. Beautifully stated, hufnagel; the entire post.

    Some of you folks here think you have a clue... But you don't. You remind me of the yuppies and other "special folks" who think/say that everybody down here behaves and conducts themselves properly during hurricane evacuations.

    Have ANY of you ever been in the middle of a clusterfuck evacuation and/or other situation when normally sane folks are trying to get away from something they know is dangerous to them?

    Whatever. Continue your discussion. Some points made are very appropriate; some are amusing.

    .
    Thanks.

    And no, I can honestly say i've never been in a situation where GTFO NOW was going on. I've only seen it on the TV, and yes it sure looks like to me reason & logic go out the window and the Lizard Brain takes over 100%, the herd mentality goes into full effect, and the lemmings will run off the cliff into the sea below en mass.

    "A person is smart. PEOPLE are stupid." while yes a quote from a movie, it's pretty damn accurate.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by hufnagel View Post
    ?.. and yes it sure looks like to me reason & logic go out the window and the Lizard Brain takes over 100%, the herd mentality goes into full effect, and the lemmings will run off the cliff into the sea below en mass.

    .
    That is EXACTLY what happens... and worse.

    .

  4. #24
    Site Supporter 41magfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    After conversing with a close friend of Kenyan ancestry on this matter,here's the salient points:

    Mind your route when traveling. If you're going someplace and it's through an area likely to be tumultuous , work around it or don't go . When political turmoil happened for said friend in Nairobi his family eliminated nonessential travel until things cooled off.m, whether it was a weekend soccer match or longer term issues.

    In the event that doesn't work and you're trapped on a road with a lot of people on it, pull off and reroute before you're "surrounded".

    I gather being "stuck" in a riot as mentioned by the OP would be a culmination of situational awareness and conflict avoidance failures; topics sure to be brought up at any legal proceeding following a use of force within a mob.In this age of InstaFaceWitter , any smartphone user should have relatively recent news on which areas are experiencing "unrest" and thus make plans accordingly.
    Your friend obviously has some experience in dealing with civil unrest, as his advice is perfectly pertinent.

    Awareness and avoidance is paramount to personal security regardless of the nature of the risk or threat. Most of the people I know that carry (always, often or occasionally) are just armed, their heads are still up their asses most of the time.

    As an example, my Daughter is attending a performing arts function in Charlotte today. It's not terribly close to the previous scenes of unrest, but as a precautionary measure my SIL is dropping her and her guest off at the front door so they aren't exposed to the vulnerable areas outside the venue.

    The second point about not getting "boxed in" is crucial because once the traffic is backed up for six blocks, your options in responding to the situation just got VERY limited. As soon as you see traffic slowing for reasons you can't determine, pull over somewhere until you can sort it out. When I see lots of bright tail-lights and slow moving traffic, my default response these days is to simply divert from my original travel route at the first opportunity.

    Most of the time it's just a MVA I've avoided, but being stuck in stopped traffic is absolute - even if there is no component of danger associated with it. Having to re-route is often an inconvenience, but it's always quicker than standing still.

    I say all this simply because the time to think about having a "Plan B" is not while you're sitting in backed-up traffic.
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  5. #25
    Back in the U.S.S.R. blues's Avatar
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    I think we can come up with myriad scenarios until the cows come home but in my humble opinion...and to cut to the chase...I don't believe we are under any legal obligation to sacrifice ourselves or our loved ones to the whims of an individual or mob.

    That means that if I find myself in a scenario wherein I must either defend my own life or the life of a loved one...or protect life by transporting someone in dire need to a medical facility...I will take whatever steps necessary, as in a "use of force continuum", to accomplish that mission.

    If evasion suffices then that is all well and good. However, every means at one's disposal is valid as long as the need for the action can be articulated and justified via the reasonable man standard. (Yes, I'm aware that there seem to be fewer reasonable men or standards anymore.)

    Better to fight the matter in court than die sitting in your vehicle wondering whether you had the right to save yourself or the life of a loved one.
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  6. #26
    Mr. Shovel Lover Hambo's Avatar
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    There was an OIS this year that has caused protests, but no rioting. Potential problems cropped up at various times: initial shooting info and endless news cycle, announcement of who will or will not be investigating, grand jury decisions, etc. My wife's commute takes her through that city, so I pay attention to the news at those times so I can have her change her route. The way the roads are around here, including highways, there aren't many options once you run into a problem.
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  7. #27
    10.3" Master Race TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hufnagel View Post
    Interesting tack. Does being surrounded by a mob of clearly agitated persons who are illegally obstructing traffic and refusing to allow safe passage for those in transit, constitute being "taken hostage." For the folks with badges and papers that say "law degree" on them, I'd like like to hear your thoughts. If the parameters are met for being "taken hostage" what actions/recourse can be taken to free yourself? Is homicide of those who hold you hostage allowed? If not under what circumstances.
    It depends on how you go about this.

    Like Tamara mentioned earlier, slow roll on the horn, and someone gets run over on their own accord? You're probably ok, especially if it wasn't something you could avoid.

    Purposely using your car as a weapon? That's where your articulation for deadly force is going to be relevant. "They weren't just slapping my car, they were trying to break my windows and open my doors. I could hear them yelling that they were going to rape my daughter in the backseat and kill us both. Then they began hitting the windows with hard objects. I couldn't back up or go around them to get out of the city, there were mobs reported at the other routes/this mob formed out of nowhere while we were slowed in traffic." Things like that.

    In any case, courts have been pretty clear that a crowd illegally obstructing traffic without further specifics is an inconvenience, and you're not allowed to plow through them using your car as a weapon just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

    If someone gets hurt or you operate your car in a manner that is endangering human life, you need to be clear how you getting to your destination outweighs their interest to life. Reasonable man standard. Saying, "fuck you its a highway so I have the right of way" is not something that I feel is going to meet the reasonable man test.
    Last edited by TGS; 09-25-2016 at 10:38 AM.
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  8. #28
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSP972 View Post
    Some of you folks here think you have a clue... But you don't. You remind me of the yuppies and other "special folks" who think/say that everybody down here behaves and conducts themselves properly during hurricane evacuations.

    Have ANY of you ever been in the middle of a clusterfuck evacuation and/or other situation when normally sane folks are trying to get away from something they know is dangerous to them?
    I do remember that GBI trooper in riot gear in line with his buddies turning and yelling "Make sure you get my good side!" on the night of April 30th, 1992 down there near Underground while I was hanging out the passenger window of my friend's car with a fast lens and some 1600-speed film. I need to find those negatives. Good times, good times...

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 41magfan View Post
    ....As soon as you see traffic slowing for reasons you can't determine, pull over somewhere until you can sort it out. When I see lots of bright tail-lights and slow moving traffic, my default response these days is to simply divert from my original travel route at the first opportunity.

    ...

    I say all this simply because the time to think about having a "Plan B" is not while you're sitting in backed-up traffic.
    Context matters here too; if I stopped or diverted every time I saw lots of tail-lights I'd be sitting still or driving in circles forever

    This is a serious risk for me; appreciating the conversation.

  10. #30
    A point I'll drop here; a crowd violent enough to be a deadly threat is unlikely to be unarmed themselves . A car isn't as bullet-resistant as Hollywood would suggest.
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