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Thread: Lawful Self-Defense to "Run-Down" Rioters?

  1. #11
    After conversing with a close friend of Kenyan ancestry on this matter,here's the salient points:

    Mind your route when traveling. If you're going someplace and it's through an area likely to be tumultuous , work around it or don't go . When political turmoil happened for said friend in Nairobi his family eliminated nonessential travel until things cooled off.m, whether it was a weekend soccer match or longer term issues.

    In the event that doesn't work and you're trapped on a road with a lot of people on it, pull off and reroute before you're "surrounded".

    I gather being "stuck" in a riot as mentioned by the OP would be a culmination of situational awareness and conflict avoidance failures; topics sure to be brought up at any legal proceeding following a use of force within a mob.In this age of InstaFaceWitter , any smartphone user should have relatively recent news on which areas are experiencing "unrest" and thus make plans accordingly.
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  2. #12
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    GardoneVT: so, how many square miles around every shooting-by-cop are you defining as an "avoidance" radius? At this point in time it seems like EVERY incident of someone getting lead poisoning has far too great a potential to blow up in our collective faces. Are you already excluding potential hot spots? Or is your heat map only defined based on reported incidences. Your argument of "everyone is connected" is flawed as not everyone IS connected. If you're already out and about and the balloon goes up for the next BLM fireside street chat, what do you do then? While I don't want to advocate for "street justice", but I think the time has passed with allowing the inmates to run their local asylums. If a group if dindonuffin's decide it's time to surround my vehicle and try a stop-n-rob, it's gas down and go time. As to a prior comment alluded to, yes I do think that the more of these events happen the more they should play into the justification for use of force to escape. This isn't the financial industry where "prior performance is NO guarantee of continued success." Each time they grow more bold, brazen, and violent.
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  3. #13
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    Legal analysis is one thing..., but there is no way to know if a rioting mob does not present a "lethal threat". In the context of these riots, where ample evidence abounds of them assaulting white people just because they were there, it's reasonable to assume they are a threat, and irresponsible if you don't.

    If someone insists on approaching you on the street at night, after you warn them off, that should raise their threat level to you, doesn't mean you shoot them, but you must assume they are a threat. This is no different.

    Even if a jackass prosecutor charged you, i think most juries would not convict someone in the context of Charlotte's rioting the other evening.
    Last edited by Terry; 09-24-2016 at 08:14 AM.

  4. #14
    Here is an interesting situation. Let's say I'm rushing my son, who is having anaphylaxis shock, to the emergency room and I come upon a group blocking us. My options are to let my son die or drive through the "protesters". I can tell you witch one I'm going to do regardless of the legalities, but would I have some legal justification for doing so?

  5. #15
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    I believe I remember hearing of a group blocking/attempting to block an Interstate recently. I'm sketchy on the details but assume that was the case. I, Joe Blow, unaware of the fact am driving from Pt A to B on that Interstate and find them blocking the highway between exits. No way to back up/or doing so would be a distance of miles...

    Today it seems that I'm morally and legally expected to sit there and let them come at and "rock" my vehicle at a minimum whether or not my family is inside with me? Seriously?

    Low gear here I come... get outta the way dudes.. State and Federal law say I/vehicles have the right of way on Interstates. If you get run over by me as I proceed.. sorry. Not my fault. See you in court if you survive.. in the hospital? Well, your family might but I won't and am NOT paying your bills and I won't allow my insurance company to do so either. I'd rather file bankruptcy and/or go to jail.

  6. #16
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5pins View Post
    Here is an interesting situation. Let's say I'm rushing my son, who is having anaphylaxis shock, to the emergency room and I come upon a group blocking us. My options are to let my son die or drive through the "protesters". I can tell you witch one I'm going to do regardless of the legalities, but would I have some legal justification for doing so?
    Self defense (or defense of another's life) is an affirmative defense to causing harm to another individual.

    In short, yes you'll have "justification" but that doesn't mean you have some sort of immune authorization to run people over. Very few places have laws like Texas that state you can kill someone for doing A, B, C, etc. In almost all states you have to prove you were justified whether it be to the responding officers, a prosecutor reviewing the case, or a jury of your peers.

    Me, personally, would drive that car right through the fucking crowd for you while you hold your kid in the back seat. I'm comfortable with that decision provided it's an unlawful gathering. Driving through a permitted protest because you don't want to take the detour probably won't end well. Specifics, articulating the facts, all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Legal analysis is one thing..., but there is no way to know if a rioting mob does not present a "lethal threat".
    No, unless you're clairvoyant you wouldn't know if the crowd presents a lethal threat prior to one actually being presented. It's a good thing the law doesn't require clairvoyance on your part, only articulation.

    "I'm surrounded by black people and they're impeding my movement, so I'm scared" isn't going to cut it for popping someone's skull with a tire. You're going to need to articulate some sort of immediate threat to life/limb, like them breaking your window with a hardened object which is being used in a manner that presents the risk of grievous harm, or kidnap you upon gaining entry (why else would they be gaining entry), or you have some sort of intelligence that the crowd is armed and hostile (even targeting you), before you even get to them, in which case it's entirely possible that a LEO could even ask you, as the bus driver, to run anyone over that tries to impede the busses traffic while transporting protected persons.

    Not that I'd know.

    In any case, reversing out if possible, and maintaining a clear head instead of getting freaked the fuck out is probably the best course of action.
    Last edited by TGS; 09-24-2016 at 06:13 PM.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmweaver2 View Post
    Low gear here I come... get outta the way dudes.. State and Federal law say I/vehicles have the right of way on Interstates. If you get run over by me as I proceed.. sorry. Not my fault.
    I would take a step back, lose the bravado, and rethink that decision.

    I'd like to point out that you're not the one who's going to decide who pays the bill in this decision, either.
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  8. #18
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hufnagel View Post
    Each time they grow more bold, brazen, and violent.
    Exactly so. Beautifully stated, hufnagel; the entire post.

    Some of you folks here think you have a clue... But you don't. You remind me of the yuppies and other "special folks" who think/say that everybody down here behaves and conducts themselves properly during hurricane evacuations.

    Have ANY of you ever been in the middle of a clusterfuck evacuation and/or other situation when normally sane folks are trying to get away from something they know is dangerous to them?

    Whatever. Continue your discussion. Some points made are very appropriate; some are amusing.

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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Self defense (or defense of another's life) is an affirmative defense to causing harm to another individual.

    No, unless you're clairvoyant you wouldn't know if the crowd presents a lethal threat prior to one actually being presented. It's a good thing the law doesn't require clairvoyance on your part, only articulation.

    "I'm surrounded by black people and they're impeding my movement, so I'm scared" isn't going to cut it for popping someone's skull with a tire.
    I think being taken hostage by any rioting mob justifies trying to escape, if they get run over in the process, their blood is on their own heads.

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