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Thread: Training to most likely or most dangerous COA?

  1. #1

    Training to most likely or most dangerous COA?

    When it comes to training everyone has some resource that is scarce. Time, ammo, availability etc.

    I would wager, most people on this forum work to prioritize training using some degree of analysis of most likely and most dangerous courses of action

    What is everyone's spread on how they weight those both in training, planning and preparation?

    Using this video as an example. To me, that would be a case of most dangerous COA coming to life. Those cops were likely trained how to deal with a very "normal"(normal in a sense of the job) situations, but quickly found themselves outpaced.

  2. #2
    Site Supporter Giving Back's Avatar
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    The mindset I adopted when I began the profession of arms was that I’d train as if I had to fight my equals, or most dangerous COA, or “scariest environment imaginable”. At no time during my 25+ years of shooting guns for a living was I ever in a situation where I felt that I was not adequately prepared. And when facing run of the mill shitheads, it was rare to get an elevated heart rate, as most of those encounters ended up more as shootings, and much less as gunfights.

    I highly recommend shootings when presented with the choice........

    I mean, fuck me, gunfights are scary and dangerous. You can get killed doing that kind of shit.
    You can get much more of what you want with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

  3. #3
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    With most pursuits, I’ve found it best to break things down into fundamentals, and then apply those fundamentals when needed. Ideally you reach a level of subconscious competence (SC) with the fundamentals such that you don’t even have to think about what you’re physically doing, which in turn frees up your brain to think entirely about the issue at hand.

    For most people on this forum, o would expect that there are a certain core group of fundamentals that are at the SC leave, and then a layer on top of that of conscious competence (CC) skills. So for example we are probably all capable of drawing pistols, aligning sites, pressing triggers, and maybe reloading without giving them any thought, but a tricky malfunction might take a level of CC to clear. Activating a weapon-mounted-light (WML) may take some CC for some not used to having one.

    So I don’t find a whole lot of need for scenario-based training or even giving it much thought. Competition can help with that as, once you have those core SC skills, it challenges you to deal with the unknown to some degree. Even in USPSA where you’re trying to run a rehearsed stage plan, things go wrong and you have to adapt. That’s good brain training IMO.

    Over the past couple of months I built a couple of, nearly identical, wood decks. In both cases, I was pretty happy to see that there were many SC skills (screwing in boards, cutting off ends, aligning speed square, retrieving pencil from tool pouch, etc) that made the projects go much easier than I would imagine they would for a total noob. But when the time came to build the second deck there were skills that may have been CC on the first one that suddenly became SC on the second.
    Last edited by rob_s; 03-25-2021 at 06:48 AM.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    With most pursuits, I’ve found it best to break things down into fundamentals, and then apply those fundamentals when needed. Ideally you reach a level of subconscious competence (SC) with the fundamentals such that you don’t even have to think about what you’re physically doing, which in turn frees up your brain to think entirely about the issue at hand.

    For most people on this forum, o would expect that there are a certain core group of fundamentals that are at the SC leave, and then a layer on top of that of conscious competence (CC) skills. So for example we are probably all capable of drawing pistols, aligning sites, pressing triggers, and maybe reloading without giving them any thought, but a tricky malfunction might take a level of CC to clear. Activating a weapon-mounted-light (WML) may take some CC for some not used to having one.

    So I don’t find a whole lot of need for scenario-based training or even giving it much thought. Competition can help with that as, once you have those core SC skills, it challenges you to deal with the unknown to some degree. Even in USPSA where you’re trying to run a rehearsed stage plan, things go wrong and you have to adapt. That’s good brain training IMO.

    Over the past couple of months I built a couple of, nearly identical, wood decks. In both cases, I was pretty happy to see that there were many SC skills (screwing in boards, cutting off ends, aligning speed square, retrieving pencil from tool pouch, etc) that made the projects go much easier than I would imagine they would for a total noob. But when the time came to build the second deck there were skills that may have been CC on the first one that suddenly became SC on the second.
    What degree of performance do you consider necessary for SC?

    If you were forced to codify it as a 1.5 second draw, or sub 2 sec bill drill. What would those metrics look like?

    How do you validate you have a skill at the subconscious level?

  5. #5
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    What degree of performance do you consider necessary for SC?

    If you were forced to codify it as a 1.5 second draw, or sub 2 sec bill drill. What would those metrics look like?

    How do you validate you have a skill at the subconscious level?
    it's all personal. I don't care about yours, and you probably shouldn't care about mine.


    ETA:
    to try and offer something in a positive direction...

    It's more of a feeling. You shoot a stage and realize you don't even really remember sight pictures, draw, trigger, etc. Or maybe you got halfway through your choreography and something didn't work out as you expected and you were able to put all of your mental focus on solving the problem without actively thinking about some of the fundamentals.

    it's not about times and temps.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    it's all personal. I don't care about yours, and you probably shouldn't care about mine.


    ETA:
    to try and offer something in a positive direction...

    It's more of a feeling. You shoot a stage and realize you don't even really remember sight pictures, draw, trigger, etc. Or maybe you got halfway through your choreography and something didn't work out as you expected and you were able to put all of your mental focus on solving the problem without actively thinking about some of the fundamentals.

    it's not about times and temps.
    This.

    I remember shooting a very complex IDPA stage one time and cleaning it in a time that turned heads among other competitors. The stage designer was an OB/GYN. He had brought in a dummy of a baby that weighed about 10 pounds. You had to carry the baby while you shot the stage, and dropping it was an instant DQ. When it was over, he asked me how I had done it. I said, "I shot reverse Weaver at first and I pulled my workspace in really close." That's really all I remember about it. I was so focused on not dropping the baby that I couldn't--and apparently didn't--think about anything else.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  7. #7
    Site Supporter PNWTO's Avatar
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    I think re-reading Sean’s and Rob’s posts pretty much sums it up.

    Although for a personal addition will say I have put much more emphasis on edged weapons and combatives the past few years. My “worst COA” is also my reality: can’t carry a firearm at work and that’s also the time when I frequently meet and engage with strangers. I also happen to be solo and in remote areas most of that time. So MUC, SPEAR, blades, BJJ, and boxing are the priorities. Dry fire a few times a week and go to range enough to maintain a baseline standard with firearms.

    Lastly, Defoor has a nice little “priority” list I try to adhere to:

    Mindset

    Fitness

    Tactics

    Equipment
    "Do nothing which is of no use." -Musashi

    What would TR do? TRCP BHA

  8. #8
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWTO View Post
    I think re-reading Sean’s and Rob’s posts pretty much sums it up.

    Although for a personal addition will say I have put much more emphasis on edged weapons and combatives the past few years. My “worst COA” is also my reality: can’t carry a firearm at work and that’s also the time when I frequently meet and engage with strangers. I also happen to be solo and in remote areas most of that time. So MUC, SPEAR, blades, BJJ, and boxing are the priorities. Dry fire a few times a week and go to range enough to maintain a baseline standard with firearms.
    that's an important distinction, and one that may be more inline with the OP's question than my response, IDK.

    Lastly, Defoor has a nice little “priority” list I try to adhere to:

    Mindset

    Diet and General Health

    avoid risk


    Fitness

    Tactics

    Equipment
    I like to add the bit in red. Maybe you could merge them to "lifestyle".

    folks should focus first on what's most likely to kill them, IMO (although that becomes a sticky argument sometimes). A person has to first *want* to survive (hence, mindset). Defoor likes to tell the story of the doctor or some such that sat and watched some dirtbags butcher his own family as an example of the lack of proper mindset (FWIW, I don't think you can teach it. some folks get mad when they are hurt, others get scared. The former fight, the latter shit themselves. mostly because it's what comes naturally). Once a person wants to survive, they should start with what they're putting into their body. then start thinking about the rest of the lifestyle. I now that cousin two counties over is fun, but he also keeps getting you into fights. I know that stripper is hot, but she's really just setting you up for her real boyfriend to rob you. if a person can stop doing drugs they're probably fixing both general health AND risk. And that includes drinking, particularly if it's taking them to bad places along with eating their liver and making them fat (the latter being the biggest problem).

    But I don't see any point worrying about running, guns, muy thai, or a new holster if you're a drug-addicted fatbody that hangs out with a bunch of knuckleheads (fortunately that's not the case for most here)

    My most likely COA? that burger from Wendy's I just downed in 15 minutes between meetings, the beers I had this weekend, and the cigar-a-day I used to smoke!
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    What degree of performance do you consider necessary for SC?

    If you were forced to codify it as a 1.5 second draw, or sub 2 sec bill drill. What would those metrics look like?

    How do you validate you have a skill at the subconscious level?
    Somewhat related, albeit possibly a bit dated:

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    Everyone I've spoken to about this project has HATED the word "overlearn" and all of its variants. Since the goal of overlearning is automaticity, I've changed the word used to describe the performance level I'm looking for. Hopefully, I should only offend the cardiologists with the word change.

    I would fully acknowledge that it is possible to have some automaticity if one isn't super fast. I would offer that it is impossible to be super fast without some degree of automaticity. I would say that lower levels of performance do not exclude overlearning and the resultant automaticity, but that higher levels absolutely require it (except for some genetically gifted freaks with incredible kinesthetic intelligence and eye sight)

    Thoughts on this one?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Default.mp3 View Post
    Somewhat related, albeit possibly a bit dated:
    There is a whole lot of science in that, and I am no physicist. I cant say I agree with that chart though. An actual GM is measured across multiple classifiers showing performance in the top 5% of the top pistol shooters. There are plenty of drill queens that can smoke a known drill in remarkable time. But that doesn't mean they have the skill

    There is a delineation between:
    Drill
    Skill
    Application

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post

    My most likely COA? that burger from Wendy's I just downed in 15 minutes between meetings, the beers I had this weekend, and the cigar-a-day I used to smoke!
    100% Agree. Most people would be better suited by a 30 minute walk than carrying a gun. That was not the point I was trying to get after.

    I was hoping to get after the idea of, should the focus be on the statistical approach ("Its going to be a 7 yard, 3 second, 4.5 round gun fight" or whatever common FBI statistic is that always gets quoted) (this is what I would consider the most likely course of action) or the anomaly (lower likely hood, but higher consequences, "black swan")(most dangerous course of action).

    I linked that video as a representation of what happens when you are trained to compete in the minor leagues, but find yourself in the rink of the Stanley Cup.

    As for performance off what feels right. I understand what you mean. Through the research done of extreme athletes in the "flow state" that is largely how top performers feel during an exercise or event.

    To me, what feels right, isn't necessarily, what wins. Which is why I was asking about what metrics are assigned to "feeling right". Or how you know, what "feeling right" should actually feel like. Or if "feeling right" is actually correct.

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