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Thread: Lawful Self-Defense to "Run-Down" Rioters?

  1. #1
    Where's the dot? RJ's Avatar
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    Lawful Self-Defense to "Run-Down" Rioters?

    I thought this was a good article, and very timely, by Mr. Andrew Branca:

    "...In short, one would apply the usual five elements of a self-defense justification to evaluate such a use of force against others, just as in any other instance of self-defense. Those elements are, of course: innocence, imminence, proportionality, avoidance, and reasonableness.

    When all required elements are present, the use of force was legally justified. If any required element is missing, whatever that use of force might have been it was not lawful self-defense.

    One of the challenges to legally justifying the use of force against highway blockades is the element of imminence. Do people who are merely blocking a roadway represent an imminent threat against which some defensive force might be justified? ..."

    More here:

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2016/09...-your-vehicle/

    Thoughts?

    I find it comforting to think of putting the truck in 4WD and using the 800 lb-ft torque of my Cummins Diesel, but there are good things to consider before doing that.


    Mods: Please move if this belongs elsewhere; Mindset and Tactics seemed a likely location.
    Last edited by RJ; 09-22-2016 at 04:54 PM.
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  2. #2
    Back in the U.S.S.R. blues's Avatar
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    If I couldn't back up or pull a maneuver to get out of a situation like that while preserving my own life as well as theirs...well, then I'd use the least amount of force necessary to get myself (and any loved ones) free of imminent danger. Same concept as the continuum of force used when drawing and employing a firearm.

  3. #3
    Member Kukuforguns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins View Post
    I thought this was a good article, and very timely, by Mr. Andrew Branca:

    "...In short, one would apply the usual five elements of a self-defense justification to evaluate such a use of force against others, just as in any other instance of self-defense. Those elements are, of course: innocence, imminence, proportionality, avoidance, and reasonableness.

    When all required elements are present, the use of force was legally justified. If any required element is missing, whatever that use of force might have been it was not lawful self-defense.

    One of the challenges to legally justifying the use of force against highway blockades is the element of imminence. Do people who are merely blocking a roadway represent an imminent threat against which some defensive force might be justified? ..."

    More here:

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2016/09...-your-vehicle/

    Thoughts?

    I find it comforting to think of putting the truck in 4WD and using the 800 lb-ft torque of my Cummins Diesel, but there are good things to consider before doing that.
    My concerns really relates to what will happen if cars in front of me and behind me limit/eliminate my ability to use the car to avoid the rioters.

  4. #4

    Lawful Self-Defense to "Run-Down" Rioters?

    My hunch is this data will become more and more pertinent as time goes on. When protests went "sideways" in my town, attempting to shut down the highway was one of the first things they did.

    http://www.greenvilleonline.com/stor...lice/86910374/

    As I am driving across the US the next couple days with my family, I will be keeping my eyes and ears open as to the state of affairs in the cities we will drive through. We do pass through Charlotte.

    One final question: do events from past riots legitimately shape ones response in a current situation / occurrence of civil unrest. The articles referenced all comment on imminence being necessary. That being said, I can't help but remember videos from the R. King riots where Reginald Denny was attacked. Those images plague my mind when contemplating my family surrounded in our vehicle by an angry mob. I know that footage and other video like it would shape the way I would articulate the calculations being made to determine whether or not imminent threat was truly present. In addition - if it is happening on one side of a city ( i.e. Charlotte ) would it be consider imminent on the other side of town. What I mean to ask is- if they are torching cars on the south side of town at roadblocks and you get entangled on the northside... Does you knowledge of the former shape your actions in the latter. Just thinking out loud.

    AVOIDANCE is my first line of defense... Thank you for posting this!


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    Last edited by JPedersen; 09-22-2016 at 06:00 PM.

  5. #5
    Every situation is different and it really depends on the context.

    People standing in the way and not doing anything else...not too much of an issue.

    People throwing stuff and actively trying to break into your car? You would be justified in driving slowly through them while honking your horn.

    Them breaking your windows and hold weapons? Well a dvr would help a lot and running over one or two in the process of escape the fear of your safety and the safety of your family...that's probably going to be a good defense...
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  6. #6
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    Reminds me of this incident. I think we even had a thread on it.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/suv-driver-...ry?id=20456813
    Last edited by Mike C; 09-22-2016 at 06:48 PM.

  7. #7
    If you need to get out of there, get out of there!
    Attack on Reginald Denny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Second 'graph here: Livernois–Fenkell riot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    According to my Dad, the DPD used up all the tear gas it had stockpiled since '67.
    Last edited by Drang; 09-23-2016 at 01:15 AM.
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  8. #8
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    It depends.

    Are people just milling around in the street and NoJusticeNoPeace-ing? Well, my evening's likely ruined, but no biggie.
    Do I see fire? Missiles being thrown at vehicles? Windows being broken? People being pulled from cars? It is on like Donkey Kong, then.

  9. #9
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    I suspect if you do, you'll be mentioned in the same sentence as Bastille Day...justified or no.

    I know we're talking worst case scenarios, but the old saying comes to mind

    "Something something ounce of prevention/pound of cure something something"

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

  10. #10
    There's a difference between "run them down" and "drive on and let the mob threatening you take their chances."

    If Glenn Reynolds had tweeted "drive on" his Twitter account wouldn't have been suspended, nor his USA Today column, and the university wouldn't be investigating him.
    Recovering Gun Store Commando. My Blog: The Clue Meter
    “It doesn’t matter what the problem is, the solution is always for us to give the government more money and power, while we eat less meat.”
    Glenn Reynolds

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