Gun and arm alignment

[RJ]

I've personally been examining this from my own perspective for the purpose of improving my own shooting. In trying different techniques to improve and also just see how the biomechanics work vs. a pistol. So my opinions and findings are based on MY perspective for MY needs. I say this as YMMV, obviously.

I think that gun to arm alignment is something that should be maintained regardless of your stance as long as you are able to manipulate the trigger properly.

I'm so far out of my lane that I'm signaling right like crazy, but I like this a lot.

Hopefully related question: Does this relate to the whole turtle-neck head down, both arms locked Iso stance you see on the web in these Panteo/Costa videos? I never could get comfortable doing that.

These days my strong arm is slightly bent, and my support arm slightly more so, when I shoot at the range. I also practice this stance dry practicing, and I see minimal sight movement, as long as I grip tightly and press straight back.

Am I ok doing this?

[Jay Cunningham]

Does this relate to the whole turtle-neck head down, both arms locked Iso stance you see on the web in these Panteo/Costa videos?

I think it's more a vestigial thing that just hasn't yet been put completely to rest for practical pistol shooting... much like "surprise break" trigger control methodology and pinning the trigger.

Note: Ernest Langdon just put out a short little FB/YouTube video yesterday regarding bang/click - go watch it.

[spinmove_]

I think it's more a vestigial thing that just hasn't yet been put completely to rest for practical pistol shooting... much like "surprise break" trigger control methodology and pinning the trigger.

Note: Ernest Langdon just put out a short little FB/YouTube video yesterday regarding bang/click - go watch it.

Based on my personal experience and experimentation, I would have to agree with Jay in general. If shooting with a technique like Chris Costa gives you noticable mitigation in recoil, I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong. However, I've found that with how my physiology works with handling a recoiling pistol that there are other techniques that work measurably better for me.

For much of the past week I was trying to replicate Robert Vogel's ISO technique. Yesterday when I hit the range, I discovered that it didn't work for me. I don't know if it's the fact that I don't have Robert's hands, forearms, shoulders, or was missing some other subtlety in technique, but moving to a technique that is more akin to how Frank Proctor manages recoil worked FAR better for me. It's just one of those things that doesn't come out until you actually put what you're practicing to test with live fire. I guess this is a good example of why you should be confirming what you're practicing in dry fire/dry practice with live fire.

Got a link to that video, Jay?

[Jay Cunningham]

For much of the past week I was trying to replicate Robert Vogel's ISO technique. Yesterday when I hit the range, I discovered that it didn't work for me. I don't know if it's the fact that I don't have Robert's hands, forearms, shoulders

You don't. Not many do.

Robert Vogel is quite the athlete, and his genetics and training regimen work a certain way for him.

Take from him the concept of what he's doing to achieve the why of how it works... not necessarily "a" technique.

[Jay Cunningham]

https://www.facebook.com/ernest.lang...10382756548489

Not to drag this post OT.

[spinmove_]

You don't. Not many do.

Robert Vogel is quite the athlete, and his genetics and training regimen work a certain way for him.

Take from him the concept of what he's doing to achieve the why of how it works... not necessarily "a" technique.

Actually, I'm glad you responded specifically the way you did. When I was at the range testing this out and it didn't work for me I immediately thought "Jay said to go for a certain GOAL, not a certain TECHNIQUE, you dingus" and then changed my technique to satisfy a set parameter of goals and, voila, it worked. So yeah, thanks for your insight from another thread.

[Jay Cunningham]

Actually, I'm glad you responded specifically the way you did. When I was at the range testing this out and it didn't work for me I immediately thought "Jay said to go for a certain GOAL, not a certain TECHNIQUE, you dingus" and then changed my technique to satisfy a set parameter of goals and, voila, it worked. So yeah, thanks for your insight from another thread.

Awesome!

I'd me interested in hearing details - hit me up with a PM!

[spinmove_]

Awesome!

I'd me interested in hearing details - hit me up with a PM!

PM sent.

[Randy Harris]

There are two different ends of the spectrum with "grip it however and don't worry" and "grip it in line with the bones in your arm" with quite a bit of ways to do it in between. What I try to do and what I teach others is to grip it like gripping a pair of pliers, by using the fingers to pull it straight back into your hand instead of gripping it like a baseball bat with fingers simply wrapped around it.

If I grip it like a bat (or any round cylinder) then the hand takes a different shape and the gun takes a different alignment in the hand. It usually makes a "triangle"with my right arm, the gun and my chest as the legs of the triangle. This has the back strap of the grip more into my thumb joint than into the web of my hand. I can still shoot that way as long as I can see the sights to confirm alignment, but if it is gripped like pliers then it is in line with the bones in my arm (or at least VERY close to it) I can naturally point it like I point my finger and it comes up where I am looking . This is all one handed I'm talking about here.

When you add in the other hand and drive it in front of your chest in an ISO type presentation then there will be a small bit of left to right wrist cant by pointing the right forearm toward the centerline and the right hand having to compensate for that to point the muzzle at the target. If you drive it more under your dominant eye and less to your centerline (assuming you are right eye dominant and right handed ) then much of the wrist cant goes away and your 2 hand presentation (and grip) is much the same as your 1 hand.

Unfortunately there just are not bumper sticker sized answers for questions as complex as how a hand fits a grip since everyone's hands are different and the shapes of different guns' grips are different. I find that focusing on gripping it like pliers gets it as close to "in line with the bones in my arm" as possible.

[JAD]

I shoot better -- fewer errors and more consistently-- when my *initial* grip puts the bore and ulna in a line. If it's important for bullseye shooting, it makes sense that it would be overall beneficial. When I form a two handed stance, it is no longer in line, but it would be if my wrist was straight.

I think there's a tendency to resist this because some people can't grip some guns this way without screwing up their trigger address -- like me with a Gen 3 Glock -- and some people really want you to be able to use their favorite gun.

If the gun doesn't fit and you can change the gun, change the gun. If you can't change the gun, I guess you have to crawl the grip and drive on.