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Thread: Gun and arm alignment

  1. #31
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Rochester Hills, MI
    Quote Originally Posted by OnionsAndDragons View Post
    I don't think there is anything inherently bad about the tacti-turtle, but I have found I shoot better in a more upright position. With a lighter gun, firing a hotter cartridge than 9mm, that extra lean in can make a real difference to me; but I only shoot 9mm now.

    From what I gather, my arm position is similar to what you describe. I stand head upright, shoulders slightly hunched up. I do not lock my elbows, but leave a bit of bend so they act like leaf springs during recoil. In my grip, I put extra pressure from both hands by using my forearms to almost roll my hands into the grip. Put the gun out in front of you in a firing grip and move as to push your elbows up just slightly until you feel your forearm muscles start to tighten.

    I'm pretty sure I cribbed the basic idea from something Vogel discussed about his grip, and I've just played with it and found a spot where it is repeatable and works for me. It may not for everyone, but it has improved my recoil control and sight tracking.
    I envision the "tacti-turtle" as more of a characature of what a shooter should do as a result of leaning into the gun and punching it out towards the target during presentation. I would argue that maybe some people are built in such a way that it appears that they do a "tacti-turtle" as a result of achieving this goal, but are actually not trying to go overboard with it. In the end, if it's comfortable and repeatable for you and it works better, then who am I to argue? But by and large I think it's partly a product of emulating certain shooters based on what they saw in a training video/class instead of knowing how to properly execute what they should do to control the gun.

  2. #32
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    The turtle thing can be detrimental to good shooting for several reasons:

    • looking through the tops of your eyeballs vs. the center of your eyeballs... shooting is obviously very visual
    • tendency to lock the elbows straight out.. this directs recoil straight into the shoulders AND also tends to break the grip off the gun high and force it lower
    • can be harder to breathe with the chin and shoulders and neck in that configuration
    Last edited by Jay Cunningham; 09-29-2016 at 01:21 PM.

  3. #33
    I think I may have replied to something similar in the past but it does depend on the type of shooting. Arm / bone alignment in bullseye or even one handed shooting and alignment might be more optimal. IMO with the modern iso type of stances, bone alignment is not ideal. A more neutral alignment of the pistol inline with the dominant eye is IMO a better option than worrying about aligning with the arm bone. When I had a more Chapman like position many years ago, alignment was more prevalent.

    For my smaller hand size and preferred trigger finger placement I am nowhere near bone alignment with my preferred grip. If I keep a rigid bone alignment then I have to use muscle tension (bad tension) to torque the pistol straight. This does not as easily create a repeatable track of the pistol through the recoil phase.

    As for the tac turtle, don't like it, don't teach it. This IMO is a poor upper body position and also creates what I consider "bad muscular tension" and is something I really try to get shooters out of doing. Once a shooter understands how to more effectively place the weight of the body into the pistol instead of attempting to use what I consider "bad muscle tension" the results are pretty much 100% positive for the shooter.

    Many think that Recoil management should come from tension of the upper upper torso as in lats, traps, shoulders and neck. When in reality many who think this use what I consider to be excessive amounts of muscular tension that creates other negative results. There is good tension and bad tension. Bad tension will often end up in the grip, but more so in the trigger finger and that equates to poorer results on target.

    Shooters may also think that more bend or forward bias at the waist is correct. While not exactly incorrect it is not optimal if you already have a good bias forward at the waist. The shooter should keep the same upright body position and correct bend at the waist no matter how fast the string of fire. Increased recoil management does not come from increased upper body muscle tension (tac turtle or similar) nor does it come from increasing the bend or forward weight bias at the waist. The increase in forward weight bias and added mass behind the weapon to manage recoil comes from increasing the bend in the leading legs knee. A slight increase in bend or angle at the leading knee puts much greater amounts of body mass forward into the weapon. This allows for the upper body to remain in a more correct position at all times.

    Yes we might get more "into the gun" as pace increases, but IMO, if your body position / tension looks dramatically different depending on your strings of fire and how rapid you might be shooting, there is probably a lot of room for improvement.

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