Budgeting for training patrol rifle instructors

[UNM1136]

I made the mistake of mentioning this to our safety and risk guys in the guise of "I want a can, if the boss says no will you backstop me from an Occupational Health perspective to justify my desire?"

What he heard was "any real world use will likely result in repeated noise impulses over 140dB". He then wanted to know why hearing protection wasn't mandatory all the time. IIRC 140dB is the OSHA threshold for immediate hearing damage. For those guys hearing protection is mandatory for the guys running lawnmowers and leafblowers. It is their job to protect us from the hazards of our job, and save workman's comp and disability claims. He nearly derailed our patrol rifle program until cans were standard, required equipment. It took a bit of tap dancing to get him to back down. Chiefs don't like being made to do things by anyone, let alone a patrolman and firearms instructor using an outside regulatory body in a scheme...We also face a better than even money likelihood of deploying indoors. I had to accept good rather than going for perfect.

We didn't get cans till 11 years into our program. We hired a State POST Master Instructor with a lot of real world tactical experience who lobbied for them. Then he refused to issue them until we had a policy in place. 15 months later we have three cans fielded (used to be four till a former 0311 and 25+ year police officer misthreaded his can....) more than a dozen of them are sitting in an office, waiting to be issued, with not a little hypocracy and sour grapes going around.

pat

[jlw]

Then he refused to issue them until we had a policy in place.

Put the suppressor on the rifle correctly. The end.

[deputyG23]

We have 30 M&Ps... and NCSHP has close to 1600 (probably more Im just low balling the number) of them... and other local agencies here have them. They work very well with little issues.

We purchased them on state contract which is way less than MSRP and cheaper than you can buy them over the counter. Honestly, they’re pretty good.

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15x-m-lok-
This is the only SKU S&W has for a LE rifle on their LE webpage. All of the others are variations on the Sport.

[KeeFus]

We buy long guns from Lawmen's in Raleigh, which is where most of this area buys them on State Contract prices. I do not know if you guys have access to a distributor in Va that does something similar but it'd be worth lookin into.

Without going into the deep with the purchases...two administrations ago the Chief delegated the purchasing of rifles to Captains who had no clue WTF they were doing and saw the "MagPul MOE" Edition mid length rifles. Im sure there was some oohing and ahhing going on.

Anyway, that's what they bought simply off the "cool factor". By the time it was all over they had bought several and that's what we have stayed with. Nothing wrong with the rifle...that's not my complaint. I'd rather of had metal furniture and metal sights to begin with. Having said that I have replaced every MagPul plastic sight with a LaRue BUIS. I literally spent about $3000.00 through LaRue on metal sights to upgrade the plastic shit sight that MagPul sales. I'm sure they're fine for regular use but when that crap rides around in the trunk of a car with varying levels of heat and cold it flexes...and loses zero. Some of them had the pin wiggle out of the sight during that flexing.

I kept the MOE furniture and have made the best of it with no issues...all to my surprise.

My personal rifle that I carry at work is an old school S&W M&P...the lower is a Stag and the upper was made by Cerro Forge and a quad rail. From what I gather online that is how S&W first got into the AR business a decade ago...buying the parts and assembling them...then etching M&P on the lower and selling it. About a year ago I replaced the extractor spring and extractor just because it wasn't ejecting where I wanted it. I also replaced the carbine buffer with an "H", and a silicone buffer spring to simply try it out ...it ran/runs fine. No issues whatsoever since I've had it. Its accurate as shit too...never replaced the barrel and I cannot tell you how many rounds I have through it. I literally clean it once a year.

Call around and spec out a rifle with everything you want it to have to begin with and get a total price. An M&P mid-length with a two-point sling, sturdy weapon mounted light, at least 3 magazines, and an optic (we are buying EOTECH EXPS's at the moment). I know that seems like a lot of money ...and it is. But you will not be playing catch-up like I have been for 2 years now. After this budget year, every rifle we purchase will, at a minimum, have all that I just listed above on it before its ever issued out.

Like has been mentioned, send a couple to an AR/M4 armorer school...Remington has field courses locally as was mentioned. We inspect all our weapons once a year and when we do we replace batteries for WML's as well as the optics. In saying that, get an optic that uses the same battery as your WML. All our lights run CR123's... and so do the EOTECHs. We have 4 Aimpoint PRO's and the officers who have them are given an extra battery.

[jlw]

State contract is a thing. You can do all of the research and recommend specific specs, but in the end, it may come down to dollars.

At my first agency, we were authorized patrol rifles after the Virginia Tech incident. Bushmasters were on state contract. They were better than not having rifles.

At the SO where I have purchasing authority, I had a fixed amount of money to get as many rifles as possible. My gun guys were pushing hard for Daniel Defense, but but that meant eight less rifles if I remember the math correctly. I didn't have any volunteers to be the deputy that didn't get a rifle.

[deputyG23]

Anybody have any experience with these or FNH LE rifles in general?
https://fnamerica.com/products/fn-15...atrol-carbine/

[John Hearne]

Anybody have any experience with these or FNH LE rifles in general?
https://fnamerica.com/products/fn-15...atrol-carbine/

Our current rifle policy require that any newly purchased rifles be manufactured by FN or Colt as they are the ones with the access to the M-4 TDP. It's not a perfect guarantee and excludes DD, BCM, and other high quality vendors. It does exclude our contracting folks from buying $350 AR's. These aren't bad options:
https://fnamerica.com/products/rifle...trol-sbr-14-5/
https://fnamerica.com/products/rifle...-srp-tactical/
https://fnamerica.com/products/rifle...5-tactical-ii/


I also failed to mention Paul Howe as a viable training source. His model is a bit different in that he expects you to watch his videos and practice his drills. When you show up, you shoot the pistol and rifle quals until you pass. Once you pass, you start working the line. You will then help teach a one-day pistol class and a one-day rifle class. By teach, I don't mean just stand and watch folks shoot but actually present a block to the class. It's a neat model and if you can shoot, you can pick up a pistol and carbine cert in a week for a very reasonable amount of money.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Our current rifle policy require that any newly purchased rifles be manufactured by FN or Colt as they are the ones with the access to the M-4 TDP. It's not a perfect guarantee and excludes DD, BCM, and other high quality vendors. It does exclude our contracting folks from buying $350 AR's.

When I was working on a program improvement to move beyond privately owned & -1033 program ARs, the spec'd guns were Colt & FN for the same reasons.