Budgeting for training patrol rifle instructors

[HCM]

I don't know how Virginia does their instructors but in NC you first have to be a "General Instructor" before you can become specialized for things like firearms, PT, etc. NC doesn't offer a "patrol rifle instructor" class as the basics are included in the firearms instructor class...

1) The FBI does offer a patrol rifle instructor class...and its free. It may take some time to calendar it because they're fairly busy. Contact your local office and ask to speak to their lead firearms instructor.

2) The NRA has a patrol rifle instructor class that is a week long. https://le.nra.org/law-enforcement-t...le-instructor/

*I've taken both those classes above and they're both good. Obviously the NRA one costs money, which may be an issue for you and the budget. (?)

3) Don't get all wrapped around the axle looking for Colt and Geissele… go buy an M&P 15 carbine or middy and be done with it. Save all that extra cash for accessories like a two-point sling, metal BUIS, and possibly an optic. I'd personally stay away from Remington...

To clarify- some local FBI Offices offer firearms training. it depends on their resources. If they don't do them locally the training coordinator can help you get into one in another area. The class is still free but you will be on the hook for any travel.

[KeeFus]

To clarify- some local FBI Offices offer firearms training. it depends on their resources. If they don't do them locally the training coordinator can help you get into one in another area. The class is still free but you will be on the hook for any travel.

Yeap.

Also, if any N.C. firearms instructors are following this there is a FBI Patrol rifle instructor class March 24 and 25 at Johnston Community College. Seats are restricted to currently certified NCJA Firearms Instructors (per the email I just got...)

[PearTree]

Like 870 express vs 870 police magnums don't confuse Remington Defense LE/MIL products with their DPMS/Bushmaster commercial stuff. My agency had some Remington defense select fire R4's and they were great guns.

Same with S&W don't confuse the M&P 15 with the Sport models. In addition to good experience with my sample of one and them holding up when run hard by Pat Rogers a few years back , my local PD (2k officers) has several hundred POW and Agency owned M&P 15's in service without issues. They were the authorized POW rifle until supplanted by the hometown brand (SOLGW) solely because/ local.

Would I rather have a BCM, Colt, SOLGW etc ? Sure, but an actual Remington Defense made R4 etc is adequate.

We t&e’d a Remington during the same time period, I don’t remember the model name as I never personally saw it. Ultimately price was the main factor and we went with m&p’s. Like I said above we had a lot of issues starting out with them. We still run them and after the teething issues they run fine. It sounds like they run well for a other agencies given the above posts. I will try and get my hands on a newer build and see if things have changed.

I still wouldn’t recommend them over the other brands I mentioned if given the choice.

[jlw]

We've been pleased with our YHM patrol rifles, and the YHM folks have been great. I have a personally owned Daniel Defense and a personally owned Colt as well as an issued Colt, and my personally owned YHM is my preferred AR.

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As for teaching patrol rifle, does VA POST require an actual patrol rifle instructor certification to teach rifle? If not, sending your instructors through some really good rifle schools to actually learn how to run the gun would be more beneficial than simply picking up an instructor certification.

[UNM1136]

We issued 16 inch M&P-15s before we bought 14.5" Colts. The M&Ps aren`t bad (24 rifles issued over 10+years) but armorer support is vital. I had to restake almost all the carrier keys out of the box. 2 minute job. I started restaking them prophylacticly when two early guns started short stroking an had shot their carrier keys loose. They were available on the state contract quite cheaply. I didn't buy them nor recommend the purchase, but I kept them running well for years. A couple of them seemed to eat gas rings, but they weren't too bad. Several of those guns are still on the road. Many got turned in because people wanted the sexy 14.5 colts with AAC cans.

I would recommend each instructor go to an armorer's course, and make an armorer's inspection part of the regular qualification schedule. Two of my guys jacked up Colts, one when he wanted a single point sling, so he loosened the castle nut and turned the receiver extension just enough with the receiver halves together and bolt carrier in to lock up the gun, and the other couldn't properly install the can and had at least two obvious end cap strikes and who knows how many baffles were hit. The first was handled with about five minutes of head scratching and "how the hell did you manage that?" The shooter was a retired combat arms type E8 and 25 year police officer. The gun survived, albeit with some cosmetic damage.

pat

[deputyG23]

I don't know how Virginia does their instructors but in NC you first have to be a "General Instructor" before you can become specialized for things like firearms, PT, etc. NC doesn't offer a "patrol rifle instructor" class as the basics are included in the firearms instructor class...

1) The FBI does offer a patrol rifle instructor class...and its free. It may take some time to calendar it because they're fairly busy. Contact your local office and ask to speak to their lead firearms instructor.

2) The NRA has a patrol rifle instructor class that is a week long. https://le.nra.org/law-enforcement-t...le-instructor/

*I've taken both those classes above and they're both good. Obviously the NRA one costs money, which may be an issue for you and the budget. (?)

3) Don't get all wrapped around the axle looking for Colt and Geissele… go buy an M&P 15 carbine or middy and be done with it. Save all that extra cash for accessories like a two-point sling, metal BUIS, and possibly an optic. I'd personally stay away from Remington...

Same in VA regarding instructor progression. First, general instructor school, then the specialties such as firearms, DT, driving, etc. Virginia DCJS minimum standards for LE do not address long guns at all anymore. Just semi-auto pistols and revolvers. Long guns are agency/regional academy specific. The private security DCJS regs are quite detailed for handguns and patrol rifles.
There is a FBI field office just a mile from the courthouse here. I will reach out to them.
I thought the NRA rifle course required the students to be pre-certified as a patrol rifle user before attending. Will investigate this further.
I'm glad that the M&P series seems to be working for folks now since there is a S&W LE distributor in town that would be able to assist with any questions or issues.

[deputyG23]

We issued 16 inch M&P-15s before we bought 14.5" Colts. The M&Ps aren`t bad (24 rifles issued over 10+years) but armorer support is vital. I had to restake almost all the carrier keys out of the box. 2 minute job. I started restaking them prophylacticly when two early guns started short stroking an had shot their carrier keys loose. They were available on the state contract quite cheaply. I didn't buy them nor recommend the purchase, but I kept them running well for years. A couple of them seemed to eat gas rings, but they weren't too bad. Several of those guns are still on the road. Many got turned in because people wanted the sexy 14.5 colts with AAC cans.

I would recommend each instructor go to an armorer's course, and make an armorer's inspection part of the regular qualification schedule. Two of my guys jacked up Colts, one when he wanted a single point sling, so he loosened the castle nut and turned the receiver extension just enough with the receiver halves together and bolt carrier in to lock up the gun, and the other couldn't properly install the can and had at least two obvious end cap strikes and who knows how many baffles were hit. The first was handled with about five minutes of head scratching and "how the hell did you manage that?" The shooter was a retired combat arms type E8 and 25 year police officer. The gun survived, albeit with some cosmetic damage.

pat

That is one reason that FN and Remington were on my list to consider is armorer support. FN's Fredericksburg facility is an hour away and Remington does numerous armorer field schools here in VA for DOC and the regional academies sponsor them as well.

[deputyG23]

Since you are in Virginia, see if you can host Phil Singleton at your place. He'll comp you slots if you do. I've taken several of his classes and they are excellent. philsingleton.com

Got to agree with Keefus on the M&P 15. My former agency has a few hundred now, and I was buying them before I left. We ran our evaluation samples pretty hard. I have a TS version I teach with and have run hard with no issues. Additionally I put the agency I reserve for into about a dozen of them. Our SHP has had them for several years as Keefus said with no problems. A lot of agencies here run them, and a good friend of mine has proposed the TS version to be their patrol rifle. They are solid rifles, and I would trust them over a few other well known brands.

Range availability could be an issue regarding scheduling an outside program to come in. We "share" the range with the county PD, which they operate, and they are planning to certify the rest of their 650 sworn staff with rifles in the near future which will cut what range time is available to us.
We will have to reach out to the neighbors to get range facilities to use.

[deputyG23]

We've been pleased with our YHM patrol rifles, and the YHM folks have been great. I have a personally owned Daniel Defense and a personally owned Colt as well as an issued Colt, and my personally owned YHM is my preferred AR.

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As for teaching patrol rifle, does VA POST require an actual patrol rifle instructor certification to teach rifle? If not, sending your instructors through some really good rifle schools to actually learn how to run the gun would be more beneficial than simply picking up an instructor certification.

This sounds like a reasonable and cost effective approach. DCJS minimum standards do not address long guns for LE, just private security. The individual agencies/academies have their own rules regarding shoulder firearms. We have an in house Sheriff's Academy accredited by DCJS and we teach shotgun and semi-auto handgun to the staff in the Basic Jailor's School.

[deputyG23]

We issued 16 inch M&P-15s before we bought 14.5" Colts. The M&Ps aren`t bad (24 rifles issued over 10+years) but armorer support is vital. I had to restake almost all the carrier keys out of the box. 2 minute job. I started restaking them prophylacticly when two early guns started short stroking an had shot their carrier keys loose. They were available on the state contract quite cheaply. I didn't buy them nor recommend the purchase, but I kept them running well for years. A couple of them seemed to eat gas rings, but they weren't too bad. Several of those guns are still on the road. Many got turned in because people wanted the sexy 14.5 colts with AAC cans.

I would recommend each instructor go to an armorer's course, and make an armorer's inspection part of the regular qualification schedule. Two of my guys jacked up Colts, one when he wanted a single point sling, so he loosened the castle nut and turned the receiver extension just enough with the receiver halves together and bolt carrier in to lock up the gun, and the other couldn't properly install the can and had at least two obvious end cap strikes and who knows how many baffles were hit. The first was handled with about five minutes of head scratching and "how the hell did you manage that?" The shooter was a retired combat arms type E8 and 25 year police officer. The gun survived, albeit with some cosmetic damage.

pat

Speaking of cans, that is one concern I voiced to my Captain is nearly certain hearing damage if one of these rifles are discharged inside a building, such as the courthouse or public area of the Jail. Are there any cases of documented disabling hearing damage from using these firearms in an enclosed area such as a small room or vehicle? There would be some sort of liability attached to hearing damage from a work tool, I would think.
Any dB exposure of 140 or greater results in permanent damage. I believe these rifles put out more than that.