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Thread: "When" do you pick up the Front Sight?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    Really, the right ways to draw have a few things in common, they just organize how to get there differently.

    Look at the spot you want to hit.

    Drive the front sight to the spot you're looking.

    Make the gun fire as close as possible to when you know you're gonna hit.
    I know this is about gaming, but just humor my contribution.

    Just to expand on this...

    In a deadly force encounter where you do not have time to consider anything other your target, you stair at the spot you want to shoot.

    Often times you hear about people shooting the gun or the hands of the bad guy, this is because people focus, and I mean pinpoint focus, on the hands of the bad guy. They sometimes don't even get the chance to see their sights but they do present the firearm and discharge it at the target of their focus.

    When you present your firearm and try to pick up your front sight when doing so against a person you may not be able to do so on the first or second shot, especially if you are moving.

    The only time you want to focus on your front sight is when you have time and opportunity to do so, sometimes that becomes necessary (precision headshots at close distance - 7 yards and in) - like Bill Rapier says during his pistol classes "focus on your front sight, squeeze squeeze squeeze..."
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  2. #12
    Member Luke's Avatar
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    I've always thought you would like my target focused shooting VDM. I can see the threat while I shoot him.
    i used to wannabe

  3. #13
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    I know this is about gaming, but just humor my contribution.

    ...
    Thanks vdm.

    Yes, this is in a USPSA context, but (and this next comment is as serious as a heart attack) at the end of the day, I want to be able to hit what I am aiming at. This may be in a self-defense situation; so I appreciate your sharing your perspective.

    Rich
    Last edited by RJ; 09-16-2016 at 08:05 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins View Post
    So, conceptually, you might not even swap focus to the front sight? Say, on a couple targets at your feet if they were at the start of a stage.
    That's how I do it and there have been quite a few discussions to that effect.

    If a target is at handshake distance away I can afford to just sort of have the gun pointed at the target with a crude silhouette of the gun rear as my "sight picture".



    Thinking that my target should dictate the sight picture I need to press the trigger?
    That's always the case. The more difficult the target either because of distance or size or importance of a perfect hit the more refined of a sight picture you need before firing.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    Really, the right ways to draw have a few things in common, they just organize how to get there differently.

    Look at the spot you want to hit.

    Drive the front sight to the spot you're looking.

    Make the gun fire as close as possible to when you know you're gonna hit.
    This is not only excellent Gabe advice, it's also not a paragraph.

    High Five!

    I personally start looking at the middle of target and shoot off of an index of sorts...once my draw is complete, I'll see that my sights are more or less where I'm looking so long as the target isn't a longer distance or a tighter shot. I like P.E. Kelley's "shoot the notch" video as a good way of explaining how much you can get away with, even with a bad sight picture. If I'm like 7-10 yards from a wide open metric, I'll just kinda look at the middle of the target, plop the front sight on the brown in some degree of alignment with the rear...I never really remember how aligned they are, but I try and focus more on the trigger press being smooth and uninterrupted.

    Steel challenge can have some tighter shots depending on the stage, so I tend to work on staring at where I want the front dot to go and clean up the alignment from there. I shoot a fiber optic sight with a 6'oclock hold and my eye is drawn to the dot, so I focus below the plate, the dot shows up around there and I clean up alignment a little so the top of the blade is about level with the bottom or bottom half of the plate, increasing my odds of a hit...if I focused on the center of the plate, my dot would be around there, I'd fire a shot with the top blade of my sight in the top half or top of the plate...not so much a problem at 20 feet, but at 25 yards, a probable miss and I'd have to do a makeup shot...or at the very least I'd have to bring the front sight down to the bottom of the plate before firing the shot anyways.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins View Post
    So, conceptually, you might not even swap focus to the front sight? Say, on a couple targets at your feet if they were at the start of a stage.

    Thinking that my target should dictate the sight picture I need to press the trigger?

    I think you can do this. The question is if you want to do it. For me I was able to do this fairly well as I became a better shooter. I saw it as an advanced form of, "seeing what you need to see." What I was really doing is overdriving the process I had learned or to put it another way I became ultra efficient. I also found that my accuracy suffered because of it.

    I found that I couldn't target focus much past 7 yards and still hit the center of the target. I was more focused on self-defense so I stopped doing it. The clincher for me was during FoF I started seeing wing shots when the good guy was moving and I target focused. When I took the time shift the focus I was right back in the center where I wanted to be.

    For pure competition I would give it a try and see how it works for you. If you carry a gun for self-defense I'm not sure if you could switch back and forth. I know I couldn't.
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.

  7. #17
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    You may take this for what it is worth. I will tell you that on standard stages where first shot speed is at a premium I do fairly well for an old man. I have had multiple classes from competitive shooters to tactical 'agency' trainers. Also if you read a little from Rob Latham he always focuses on the front sight except at contact range......he says he does it faster than most. I would like to start at position/step 1.
    1. My focus is on where I want my first shot.....basically mid horizontal nipple line and at the beep strong hand firmly establishes grip and support hand goes to diaphram level. Note that the support hand is your speed hand.......the faster it goes the faster your presentation.
    2. Strong hand comes straight up to clear holster
    3. Rotate shoulder dropping elbow to bring muzzle down range.......This is your first firing position if needed
    4. Bring gun forward towards target getting support hand involved with grip.....as the gun goes forward this is where you may again fire with a two handed grip and it is also where I start to pick up the sight in my peripheral vision as it approaches my line of sight to the target
    5. Full extension of both arms with intense focus on the front sight as it is now fully in my line of sight to my initial point of focus on target/impact point. Firing with follow through as needed.

  8. #18
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Thanks all.

    I wasn't getting into a back and forth, because frankly I'm not really qualified to debate this.

    I did want to express my thanks to everyone who answered my question.

    I'm good, for now. There is a local Steel Challenge match here in Clearwater on Saturday 15 October, I'm aiming to register for that (that would make two Steel matches, evar ).

    Appreciate the inputs.

  9. #19
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    I know this is about gaming, but just humor my contribution.

    Just to expand on this...

    In a deadly force encounter where you do not have time to consider anything other your target, you stair at the spot you want to shoot.

    Often times you hear about people shooting the gun or the hands of the bad guy, this is because people focus, and I mean pinpoint focus, on the hands of the bad guy. They sometimes don't even get the chance to see their sights but they do present the firearm and discharge it at the target of their focus.

    When you present your firearm and try to pick up your front sight when doing so against a person you may not be able to do so on the first or second shot, especially if you are moving.

    The only time you want to focus on your front sight is when you have time and opportunity to do so, sometimes that becomes necessary (precision headshots at close distance - 7 yards and in) - like Bill Rapier says during his pistol classes "focus on your front sight, squeeze squeeze squeeze..."
    Actually, no humoring needed. I know Rich_Jenkins posted in the context of USPSA/pure technical skills, but what I really enjoy is finding whatever convergence there is between the tactical and the technical - usually there is a lot. I'm always happy to talk defensive stuff, and quite honestly a lot of times I feel like something is missing if I just talk technical skills in total isolation.

    So I think we really have to start with threat ID and assessment, which is going to include a wider view of the person and their behavior, and also a specific focus on the hands (I personally think Paul Howe's basic process has a lot of merit.)

    There is a task in and of itself, once the decision to fire has been made, to move the eyes off the hands (assuming that's where they were when the decision was made) and onto the target spot. That part being missing can easily lead to shooting the hands and gun. I would readily acknowledge that plenty of things like this can be easier said than done, but we're enthusiasts at these skills and tactics, so I think we are all trying to practice to do the best we can.

    I would readily acknowledge that it might happen that we don't get on the sights. Index is very powerful, and index and coarse visual alignment can do a lot in terms of aim. But, I think self-fulfilling prophecies are a danger here too - training with an expectation that the sights can't be used, might lead to exactly that happening, largely due to lack of practice and physical rehearsal. There are SO many people who have been able to use their sights as they trained to, that I think it's very doable to employ sights for real. And it is also good to hedge that bet with things like practice using coarse visual alignment and target focused shooting, maybe with some high visibility sights in there too.

    In range practice (just to give the context of my observation here), I've found one of the key points in aiming using the sights when the shooter and/or target are moving, is highly dependent on the shooter refusing to accept a coarser visual reference and making a specific mental effort to find the front sight and glue it to the target spot. I've found that mental effort to make all the difference.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
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    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com

  10. #20
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins View Post
    Thanks all.

    I wasn't getting into a back and forth, because frankly I'm not really qualified to debate this.

    I did want to express my thanks to everyone who answered my question.

    I'm good, for now. There is a local Steel Challenge match here in Clearwater on Saturday 15 October, I'm aiming to register for that (that would make two Steel matches, evar ).

    Appreciate the inputs.
    Good luck and have fun Rich!
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com

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