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Thread: "When" do you pick up the Front Sight?

  1. #1
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    "When" do you pick up the Front Sight?

    I'll be restarting my local USPSA/Steel matches here in Florida in a few weeks. I did a whopping 1 of each last year, so I have really zip for experience.

    One thing I am starting to do in daily dry practice is to get my draws down smoothly.

    An important component of the draw is clearly getting a good sight picture before breaking the shot. My question relates to "when" you get on the front sight, in terms of the draw stroke.

    I usually start my draw practices generally in the same way, hands in the surrender position on my head, waiting for the beep, staring at the target.

    My process (if I have the draw steps correct) is:

    1 - Strong hand gets master grip on pistol. Weak hand moves to "salute" position close to chest.

    2 - Strong hand lifts pistol straight up just enough to clear front of holster.

    3 - Strong hand rotates forward and up, joining weak hand, at the low ready.

    4 - Pistol extends smoothly in a J arc towards the target.

    I get that at the end of all that, I am looking, both eyes open, at the crystal clear front sight and a blurry target.

    But I start with looking out at the target, hence: When do you pick up the front sight in your vision?

    Seems like I could do this anytime, from say "at the beep", look down, pick up the front sight, and "ride" it with my eyes all the way through the draw stroke, from 2 to 3 to 4.

    Or, I could continue to stare at the target as I see the sight rise in front of me at 4, and then refocus my eyes from target to front sight at the last minute?

    Lastly, if there is no hard and fast rule that ya'll use in USPSA, when do you pick up the front sight in your draw, and why?

    Thanks in advance!

    Rich

  2. #2
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins View Post
    Seems like I could do this anytime, from say "at the beep", look down, pick up the front sight, and "ride" it with my eyes all the way through the draw stroke, from 2 to 3 to 4.
    This ^^^ is wrong. Or at least, I've never heard of anyone doing it and I think it's wrong. Gotta keep eyes on the target spot and bring the gun and sights to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins View Post
    Or, I could continue to stare at the target as I see the sight rise in front of me at 4
    Yes, this ^^^^, this is what you need to do. Bring the gun to the spot you are looking (the target spot.)

    Generally speaking, one can pick up the front sight once the front sight is in the true eye-target line, AND the gun is moving at a speed where you can see it.

    If I present the gun in the true eye-target line, I have to artificially slow the rate of extension in order to see the front sight. I start seeing the front sight once the gun decelerates at the end of the stroke.

    The press-out is based around the idea of presenting the gun in the true eye-target line, aiming the gun using the sights during that extension, and actively working the trigger in accordance with the sights as the gun is extended.

    But for me, since I don't see the front sight until I slow the gun down at the end, I dispense with the true eye-target line presentation and extend the gun in the more conventional J-draw manner like you are talking about. A side issue with the true eye-target line presentation is that the gun tilting up due to what are known as wrists, becomes almost unavoidable. Then, in a real irony of epistemology that reminds me of a pop-science treatment of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, if I grasp (mentally) at trying to see the sights as I extend the gun and thus present it in the true eye-target line, it is maybe less likely to actually be on target because of the wrist tilt. If I present the gun a bit lower (not much, I am still talking the good old four-count type of presentation that has been around for a long time and essentially what you and I worked on together), then even though I may not have the visual certainty of seeing the sights, the gun is more likely to be level and on the target, now because the wrists aren't causing the gun to tilt as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins View Post
    , and then refocus my eyes from target to front sight at the last minute?
    Maybe, if you need the front sight sharp and clear and can't shift accommodation (focal depth) to front sight distance until the front sight is there.

    Alternatives to accepting the delay of shifting accommodation (focal depth) to the front sight only after it is in final position:

    Learn the at-will focal shift like I describe in my big vision paper. Not gonna work for everyone.

    Learn to shoot the first shot or two with a target focus. This can be significantly aided by using some kind of high-visibility front sight.

    There are a lot of discussions on PF comparing the merits of the press-out (eye-target line presentation) and other, more conventional draws. To me, they are all good ways to draw, but I have gone back to the conventional presentations because I find them a bit faster. That is somewhat dependent on practice and the resulting decent indexing ability (you bring the gun to the target spot and through a consistent, practiced, grip and presentation, it shows up with the sights already aligned with the target.)

    The true key is diligent practice. If you do that, you'll do well with any of the reasonable drawstroke variations.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
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  3. #3
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    ^^^ Got it. Thanks Gabe.

    At least I have a chance of practicing 'correctly' before my first steel match.

  4. #4
    Member Luke's Avatar
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    I only read the title. Very sorry lol on the interstate and a lot of reading makes me head hurt.


    I guess I'm not flexible, I pick up the front sight at basically Faulk extension. I also look at where I want to shoot and wait for the front sight to get there.
    i used to wannabe

  5. #5
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke View Post
    I only read the title. Very sorry lol on the interstate and a lot of reading makes me head hurt.


    I guess I'm not flexible, I pick up the front sight at basically Faulk extension. I also look at where I want to shoot and wait for the front sight to get there.
    Thanks Luke, hope you are not driving. Full extension, got it.

  6. #6
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins View Post
    ^^^ Got it. Thanks Gabe.

    At least I have a chance of practicing 'correctly' before my first steel match.
    I tried to summarize probably hundreds of pages of discussion spread across PF that are related to this, plus emphasized a lot of my own opinion. I don't have a link handy at the moment but those discussions are worth looking at.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
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    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com

  7. #7
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    I tried to summarize probably hundreds of pages of discussion spread across PF that are related to this, plus emphasized a lot of my own opinion. I don't have a link handy at the moment but those discussions are worth looking at.
    Got it.

    I still have "float the gun out there" in my head.

    Thanks again. I will research more but I was looking for a quick correction before I spend four weeks on draws to show up at a match in Oct doing it wrong.

  8. #8
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Really, the right ways to draw have a few things in common, they just organize how to get there differently.

    Look at the spot you want to hit.

    Drive the front sight to the spot you're looking.

    Make the gun fire as close as possible to when you know you're gonna hit.
    Last edited by Mr_White; 09-16-2016 at 04:38 PM.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com

  9. #9
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    Sorry to inject this but you pick up the front sight when it falls off the gun. I've seen that happen a bit. One of my fiber optics disappeared on the draw. I've seen standard looking sights just drop into the Texas dust.

    Best was a guy who had laser combo, strobe light on the gun. Totally newbie. Gets up there and the combo falls off on the ground. The laser and strobe go off like a disco. Hilarity was rampant among the observers.

    Just had to say that with the title.

  10. #10
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    Really, the right ways to draw have a few things in common, they just organize how to get there differently.

    Look at the spot you want to hit.

    Drive the front sight to the spot you're looking.

    Make the gun fire as close as possible to when you know you're gonna hit.
    So, conceptually, you might not even swap focus to the front sight? Say, on a couple targets at your feet if they were at the start of a stage.

    Thinking that my target should dictate the sight picture I need to press the trigger?

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