LEM and split times

[Kirk]

Hi,

I just picked up a P30 LEM and I know this has been discussed as nauseam, but had a question.

What are the fastest split times you’ve attained at any distance with the LEM trigger?

I ask because I actually feel like the LEM is actually a great “all-around” trigger (YMMV) for all the things I like. The one knock I’ve heard is that split times may suck compared to what I’m used to. After 2 years of shooting in BE matches, I’m planning to return to shooting some Steel Challenge matches in 2018. With the ammo I have on hand, my goal is to shoot 40-50k rounds this year. I may shoot a couple of USPSA matches this year with it too. I guess I’m wondering what kind of splits I can expect to get out of the trigger with a lot of practice sessions and training. I haven’t focused on speed in 2ish years, but when it was my primary focus, I was getting .17ish splits at 7-10 yards with my CZ Custom Shadow. Just curious what I should be expecting and if you guys have gotten splits under .20 with the LEM regularly (I know we have shooters here who are infinitely better than me). And yes, I realize Steel Challenge is a transition and trigger control game, was really just wanting to know what to expect.

Mods: If I missed a thread clearly outlining all of this, please feel free to delete.

[GJM]

Discussing split times on the Internet, is the gun formal form equivalent of fishermen telling you how big a fish they caught. Besides that, it’s not pure split times that are harder with the LEM, it is making difficult shots quickly. It certainly can be done, it just takes more skill for a given ability compared to some other triggers. If you want to make the LEM “your trigger,” that is fine — just accept your results will be a little bit less than with alternatives.

[Kirk]

Discussing split times on the Internet, is the gun formal form equivalent of fishermen telling you how big a fish they caught. Besides that, it’s not pure split times that are harder with the LEM, it is making difficult shots quickly. It certainly can be done, it just takes more skill for a given ability compared to some other triggers. If you want to make the LEM “your trigger,” that is fine — just accept your results will be a little bit less than with alternatives.

Understood, I was just trying to see what can be accomplished with the trigger at the higher end of the envelope. I figure there will certainly be a learning curve coming from custom 1911s I’m used to, but was curious what could be accomplished. I know several of you (yourself included) have a lot of experience with the LEM and others here have competed with it as well. Can’t find much through my “normal” sources (BEnos, etc).

Certainly not trying to get a bunch of “I split dat thurrr P30 LEM in .12 seconds!”, just wanted to make sure I wasn’t completely wasting my time on a trigger that would be completely uncompetitive. Lol. As you say, though, I realize there are better triggers for gun games.

[Doc_Glock]

Inexperienced LEM shooter and into a berm with no accuracy requirement, I could split it 0.21. In contrast I can split a Glock at 0.17-0.18.

If I actually have to hit something with either I slow up to ~0.28 max speed for a B8@5.

Hope that helps.

[GJM]

Understood, I was just trying to see what can be accomplished with the trigger at the higher end of the envelope. I figure there will certainly be a learning curve coming from custom 1911s I’m used to, but was curious what could be accomplished. I know several of you (yourself included) have a lot of experience with the LEM and others here have competed with it as well. Can’t find much through my “normal” sources (BEnos, etc).

Certainly not trying to get a bunch of “I split dat thurrr P30 LEM in .12 seconds!”, just wanted to make sure I wasn’t completely wasting my time on a trigger that would be completely uncompetitive. Lol. As you say, though, I realize there are better triggers for gun games.

Since Steel Challenge is optimally one shot and transition, splits shouldn't be a factor with LEM. USPSA field courses don't seem to tease out small differences in shoot- ability, unlike other tasks. If you want to do it, I would not worry about what others report, and instead make it your gun and see how far you can take it. The good news is shooting LEM makes you better at other triggers, although unfortunately the inverse is not true in my experience.

PS, I seem to recall YVK shooting .14 splits with his GGI LEM P30, but I thinking he was showing off for a Lithuanian girl in the next shooting stall. @YVK

[TCinVA]

Hi,

I just picked up a P30 LEM and I know this has been discussed as nauseam, but had a question.

What are the fastest split times you’ve attained at any distance with the LEM trigger?

That's too overly broad to be useful.

I've done a considerable amount of shooting with pretty much all the trigger systems commonly available in handguns including a number of years shooting the P30 with LEM. The problem quantifying differences in split times is that there are so many other factors at work in the various pistols besides the trigger characteristics that it is difficult to make a definitive statement.

Example: Probably the fastest and most accurate aimed splits I've ever fired was with a Wilson CQB in 9mm. It would be tempting to boil that down to the trigger being a 4.5 pound straight-travel affair with a short reset...but with my processing speed the fact that the weight of the all steel pistol and the relative mildness of 9mm FMJ ammo prevents the slide from moving all that much is more responsible for that than the trigger itself.

Another good example would be my first outing with an LEM gun back when Todd asked me to shoot the HK45 he was running in a class. I had just been at the range with him a few days previously using my S&W M&P with a Burwell trigger job in it and I had also done Speed Kills with him (very small targets, closer ranges) not long before. On drills where we tracked splits, the fastest splits I got were .17 splits on 8" circles at 5 yards. That was about as fast as I could physically make the gun work.

In class with the borrowed HK45 LEM system, a trigger system I had roughly 1,000 rounds on and that considerably before this class, my measured best with the HK45 was .19 splits. And that's with a gun that has a higher bore axis and was shooting 230 grain hardball ammo.

Again, that was max speed. When going for accuracy I tend to shoot just a tad slower:



Having run the FAST drill once or twice in classes or in practice sessions exactly like the one that this video was taken in, and having done so with multiple handguns with different operating systems, I have not seen a significant difference in performance attributable to the trigger. The performance I can generate is limited by me, not really the gun.

I ask because I actually feel like the LEM is actually a great “all-around” trigger (YMMV) for all the things I like. The one knock I’ve heard is that split times may suck compared to what I’m used to.

Do most of the people saying that have actual significant experience running the LEM?

You can probably guess where I'm going with that question...people who haven't done the work aren't really qualified to speak with any authority on the topic. The LEM feels a bit different to other triggers and it has a longer reset than most are used to. Even so, the reset isn't really all that bad. I have a PX4C that I just put the Competition trigger group in and the reset is only a hair shorter than the reset on my TLG special LEM. Yet you can see on this board plenty of evidence of folks shooting the PX4 quite well.

The "worst" feature of the LEM trigger pull is that once you've reset the trigger there is some takeup in the trigger's travel before you hit the part of the trigger pull that's releasing the sear and dropping the hammer. This tends to throw people for the exact same reason that people have a hard time with Glock triggers, namely that they try to move the trigger all at once instead of taking the slack back out and then press through. Alternately you can eliminate the entire problem just by using a "rolling break" which is what Todd found to be the best method of working the LEM trigger.

I haven’t focused on speed in 2ish years, but when it was my primary focus, I was getting .17ish splits at 7-10 yards with my CZ Custom Shadow. Just curious what I should be expecting and if you guys have gotten splits under .20 with the LEM regularly (I know we have shooters here who are infinitely better than me). And yes, I realize Steel Challenge is a transition and trigger control game, was really just wanting to know what to expect.

If it's the first time you've run the P30 seriously, expect a dip in performance as you transition and get used to the new pistol. If you were used to doing most of your shooting with the CZ's single action trigger (likely with a very short reset) then you will absolutely need to adjust your concept of working the trigger a bit to perform well with the P30. You may also need to work with the different grip panels to find the combination that lets you run the gun the best. (For me it's large side plates and medium backstrap)

In the short term you will have to pay more deliberate attention to running the trigger properly, which for some people actually increases performance since they are not just running the gun by feel.

In the long term the biggest factor in your performance will be what it always is: You.

Expect to take some time to get used to it...but if you are really going to shoot 50,000 rounds this year through the pistol then you will have no shortage of repetitions to get used to it with.

[EVP]

I just want to say that it is nice to see you post TCinVA.

I know I prob speak for many but your posts always add tremendous value,are spot on, and are articulated in a way that very few people can.

Best wishes




Honestly I think TC pretty much hit this this one out of the park. Not really much to add or say and even got some nuggets out it.

[BJJ]

I just want to say that it is nice to see you post TCinVA.

I know I prob speak for many but your posts always add tremendous value,are spot on, and are articulated in a way that very few people can.

Agreed.

[JodyH]

.21-.22 on the FAST body splits, P2000 9mm V2 LEM

[Kirk]

That's too overly broad to be useful.

I've done a considerable amount of shooting with pretty much all the trigger systems commonly available in handguns including a number of years shooting the P30 with LEM. The problem quantifying differences in split times is that there are so many other factors at work in the various pistols besides the trigger characteristics that it is difficult to make a definitive statement.

Example: Probably the fastest and most accurate aimed splits I've ever fired was with a Wilson CQB in 9mm. It would be tempting to boil that down to the trigger being a 4.5 pound straight-travel affair with a short reset...but with my processing speed the fact that the weight of the all steel pistol and the relative mildness of 9mm FMJ ammo prevents the slide from moving all that much is more responsible for that than the trigger itself.

Another good example would be my first outing with an LEM gun back when Todd asked me to shoot the HK45 he was running in a class. I had just been at the range with him a few days previously using my S&W M&P with a Burwell trigger job in it and I had also done Speed Kills with him (very small targets, closer ranges) not long before. On drills where we tracked splits, the fastest splits I got were .17 splits on 8" circles at 5 yards. That was about as fast as I could physically make the gun work.

In class with the borrowed HK45 LEM system, a trigger system I had roughly 1,000 rounds on and that considerably before this class, my measured best with the HK45 was .19 splits. And that's with a gun that has a higher bore axis and was shooting 230 grain hardball ammo.

Again, that was max speed. When going for accuracy I tend to shoot just a tad slower:



Having run the FAST drill once or twice in classes or in practice sessions exactly like the one that this video was taken in, and having done so with multiple handguns with different operating systems, I have not seen a significant difference in performance attributable to the trigger. The performance I can generate is limited by me, not really the gun.



Do most of the people saying that have actual significant experience running the LEM?

You can probably guess where I'm going with that question...people who haven't done the work aren't really qualified to speak with any authority on the topic. The LEM feels a bit different to other triggers and it has a longer reset than most are used to. Even so, the reset isn't really all that bad. I have a PX4C that I just put the Competition trigger group in and the reset is only a hair shorter than the reset on my TLG special LEM. Yet you can see on this board plenty of evidence of folks shooting the PX4 quite well.

The "worst" feature of the LEM trigger pull is that once you've reset the trigger there is some takeup in the trigger's travel before you hit the part of the trigger pull that's releasing the sear and dropping the hammer. This tends to throw people for the exact same reason that people have a hard time with Glock triggers, namely that they try to move the trigger all at once instead of taking the slack back out and then press through. Alternately you can eliminate the entire problem just by using a "rolling break" which is what Todd found to be the best method of working the LEM trigger.



If it's the first time you've run the P30 seriously, expect a dip in performance as you transition and get used to the new pistol. If you were used to doing most of your shooting with the CZ's single action trigger (likely with a very short reset) then you will absolutely need to adjust your concept of working the trigger a bit to perform well with the P30. You may also need to work with the different grip panels to find the combination that lets you run the gun the best. (For me it's large side plates and medium backstrap)

In the short term you will have to pay more deliberate attention to running the trigger properly, which for some people actually increases performance since they are not just running the gun by feel.

In the long term the biggest factor in your performance will be what it always is: You.

Expect to take some time to get used to it...but if you are really going to shoot 50,000 rounds this year through the pistol then you will have no shortage of repetitions to get used to it with.

Excellent, thanks so much for all of this! This is exactly what I was looking for. To everyone who responded, very much appreciated.

I was told by a very controversial but insanely talented pro shooter (whom many of you may know/have trained with) that my splits would probably suck. His experience with the LEM is most likely exactly 0. He also doesn’t think getting .05 better split time matters much in USPSA, so it’s kind of a non-issue. I run a lot of classifier and standard drills in my training traditionally and so I like good split times for myself, so that may have influenced this post . Probably completely dumb at this point and not how I’m going to train as much for Steel Challenge this year. I just wanted to speak with those who have ran these at a high level before to know what to expect. I’m going to train my tail off with it, so hopefully after a year and a ton of rounds down range, I can really figure it out.

Again, thanks so much for all of your replies. I totally agree that I will be the limiting factor, not the gun. Can’t wait to see where I can get with this. I’m certainly not an expert at all, but I may start a log here and report my LEM experience. Thanks!