10mm question

[dsb]

Even Col. Jeff Cooper realized there were better options then the 10mm for self defense purposes, and he helped create the thing in the first place.

Could you give a reference for this please?

[Digiroc]

I have two 10mm that are literally a blast to shoot, but for self defense and concealed carry there are many better choices. I also have two .40s that would be my choice if bullets fly, but my 9mm's are smaller, lighter, more concealable and equally effective with good shot placement.

Digiroc

[Tamara]

So... In all seriousness, is there a good source for 10mm bulk ammo? And I need to source some mags as well. Midway limits purchases to 5 and they're sold out. Any recommendations would be appreciated.

The Sig stuff is probably the cheapest quality new factory ammo out there, although I had okay luck with the Armscor, too.

Ammoseek is your new best friend if you are not a 9x19 shooter. I use the hell out of it.

[Tamara]

Of course, when I posted up Phil Shoemaker's 3953 bear over in the Third Gen forum at S&W, it went OK for awhile, then some idiot came in and crapped all over the simple existence of the thread. That's when a moderator deleted it and I was chided for posting a link to another forum (one that in no way competes in focus, and a link that could not be more on topic for people who are fans of third gens).

The PFestivus thread is in the General Discussion forum.

[Hauptmann]

Yeah man, essentially does caliber actually have an affect on performance for a regular guy? I know different calibers didn't seem to greatly impact Todd's FAST times, we can watch Miculek shoot everything under the sun with the same times and splits, and there was no appreciable difference between 9, 40, 45, and 357sig when Barnhart was running the pistol, but what about a regular dude like me? Is it going to affect me in a significant way? I've never really put it on a timer and tracked the data to see if it makes a difference for a guy like me.

I did a similar test between the 9mm and .45acp using a scoring system that would give the larger caliber a fair chance. I used a Sig P226 and a Sig P227 for the testing which are almost identical guns. Using the Federal Transitional II target positioned at my 10 o-clock, and my 2 o-clock at a shooting distance of 15 yards, the purpose of the test was to see how well I could shoot for time and engage two targets while forcing me to shift my position and stance. I then calculated the average terminal effects wound volume that the .45acp had over the 9mm Based on that calculation I gave the 9mm one point per hit, and 1.5 points per .45 hit to accurately reflect the increased permanent crush cavity that the .45 had. The Transition II target has a small inner ring in the COM, an outer ring in the COM, and then progressive bowling pin rings. Every hit in the inner ring would be multiplied 5x(to reflect the importance of that hit), every hit in the next COM ring was multiplied 2x, and anything in the outer bowling pin rings would be multiplied 1x.......anything outside that would not count. So, 3 hits of 9mm in the inner ring would be 15 points, and 2 hits of .45acp in the inner ring would be 15 points. I found point system to be more than fair for the .45acp as the larger holes in the paper gave it a scoring advantage, and the point system also favored fewer hits to equal the points of the 9mm. Another benefit that I gave to the .45acp was to make the required shots on each target only 2-shot strings allowing me more time to recover from recoil and take my time to shoot. With 9mm, I had to put 3 shots in each target under time. This works out well also for magazine capacity since the P227 holds 10rds, and the P226 holds 15rds. Each gun will go through two full magazines for the test, and each magazine is worth 15 points. So......draw from the duty holster and engage two targets in 4 seconds at 15yrds.........2 shots each with .45, and 3 shots each with 9mm. I started each round of testing with the .45acp, and did a 5-round warm-up with each caliber so that I was acclimated to it before I began.

I made 5 range trips for this test and each day I performed the test 3 times. Naturally, the first round of the test had the worst scoring of all three in both calibers as I was still warming up. In the second round my scores went way up in each caliber, and in the third round I pretty much plateaued as fatigue started to set in. So that's why I called it after 3 rounds.

So after a total of 15 rounds of testing, the 9mm won them all. Even though I gave generous advantages to the .45, the 9mm still scored between 3-15 points more in each round. Another thing that I noticed was how long it took me to warm up with each caliber, and how quickly my performance went down in the third round due to fatigue. For the .45acp, it was a bell-curve in that my performance was lowest on the first round, it peaked in the second round, and it started to go down again in the 3rd round. With the 9mm, my performance was lowest in the first round.....but it got better in the 2nd round, and peaked in the 3rd round. The 9mm averaged 13 points more than the .45 in the 1st rounds, 4 points more in the 2nd rounds, and 6 points more in the 3rd rounds.

After all was said and done, I found it difficult to justify using the .45acp over the 9mm. Even though I was able to place just about all of the .45acp rounds in the two inner rings, I was able to put more 9mms in that critical inner ring under time. Fondling guns and sitting around the house, the mind often tries to find justifications for using the larger caliber. However, at least for me, productive range time often crushes those fantasies.

[CompressionIgnition]

Don't the Danish and Norwegians armed forces carry Glock 20s with some hard cast load for backup polar bear guns? Should that influence me in Texas?

Not quite like that ... Mainland Norway does not have polar bears, and while Svalbard does have them, it is a demilitarized zone.
For sidearms The Norwegian regular Army uses the Glock 17, the Norwegian Army special forces are issued the USP9.
The regular Danish Army issues the Sig P210 (Though they call it Pistol M/49).

What you are probably thinking of is the Sirius Dog Sled Patrol on Greenland (which is Danish territory). They are indeed issued the Glock 20 to defend against polar bears!

[blake_g]

To be precise, I think the G20 feels softer than the G22, which shouldn't be surprising as the G20 weighs more, and most factory 10 is not that much hotter than .40.

I find the same, and in fact find that my 200 gr hard cast FP handloads at just under 1100 about the same as factory 180's from the G22 (well, maybe a bit "boomier"). I have a KKM .40 barrel for my G20 that makes it a pussycat to shoot - definitely softer than in the G22. I think that it may be the more generous backstrap on the G20, along with the weight of course...