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Thread: Scaled Down Targets To Replicate Distance For Dry Fire Training

  1. #31
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Dudes... you're killing me. This is so simple: as you scale the target down, you want the sight picture to be the same as it was at whatever distance the full size target is at. Same in elevation. Same in windage. So that's telling you to scale down height and width--right?
    Heh, I know I know, I feel like a D student right now.

    Wouldn't it be surface area though? And surface area is the 'size' of the target in the two dimensions we care about in this?

    So if we want to create a square (just to make it really simple) of a certain size to be used at five yards, and have it look the same as another square at twenty yards....6x6" head box at 20 yards is 36 square inches. At five yards, we'd want it 1/4 the size (I'm saying that's the surface area though), so we'd want a 9 square inch area at five yards, which would be 3"x3". Not 1.5"x1.5", which would be 2.25 square inches and a lot smaller than scale. Tell me if I am completely wrong there. I feel like people had this discussion on PF a long time ago and people much better at math than I, said it was a trigonometry thing involving the type of stuff dove linked to in his post. This is part of why I err toward smaller targets for dry practice though and don't worry too much about getting the scaling exactly right.
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  2. #32
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Gabe, you're making it too complicated. You want the vertical and horizontal angles to remain the same. That means if you are at half the distance, the height (and width) needs to be halved.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
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  3. #33
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Gabe, you're making it too complicated. You want the vertical and horizontal angles to remain the same. That means if you are at half the distance, the height (and width) needs to be halved.
    Ok...

    I was going to keep trying to discuss it, but I figured it would be frustrating for you because I am sure you know way better than I do and I don't trust myself to understand the math correctly at this point. So I did something better...an experiment to prove it to myself, yay!

    I put an 8-1/2" x11" piece of paper on the wall, went to four paces, held a ruler and extended my arms. Visually, the paper appeared 45x34mm (used the mm because way more precise for what I was doing.)

    Then I went to eight paces, held the ruler and extended my arms. Visually, the paper appeared 23x17mm...so 50% the height and width, same as what you are saying.

    Just to see what the surface area relationship was, I calculated that...1530 sq mm at four paces, 391 sq mm at eight paces...so 25% by surface area.

    Then to satisfy my curiosity because we use a lot of circular targets, I repeated with a 2" circle.

    At four paces it looked like 9mm diameter, at eight paces it looked like ~4mm diameter, so pretty much same 50% relationship by diameter.

    Comparing surface area, at four paces that's 63.6 sq mm, at eight paces that's 15.9 sq mm, so 25% again.

    I'm convinced! Thank you Clusterfrack. I guess I have been Doing It Wrong for a while.
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  4. #34
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Well that explains why you've become such an exceptional shot. You are training at the square of the distance of non-math-retarded people.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  5. #35
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Actually I think my math was in the wrong direction and I have been thinking targets were half the scaled size they actually were. Good thing I habitually fudge to longer distance in dry fire and figure it's still not the same as the real target at the real distance.

    More normal scaled targets are pretty easy to come by. Based on this math conversation, I made up some much smaller (and now hopefully scaled correctly) dry fire targets. 1/20, 1/40, and 1/80 scale, for anybody who wants to join the fun.

    twentyfortyeighty scale tiny targets.pdf
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  6. #36
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Dang those are small. Probably would hurt speed if bigger targets were left out of dry practice. Still going to use them though...

    [img]20161026_130007 by OrigamiAK, on Flickr[/img]
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  7. #37
    I like your approach Gabe.

    The math is all bullshit if it doesn't add up to what you see in the real world. That's what matters in the end.

    You'd make a good scientist.

  8. #38
    So Gabe,

    That course of yours in April I signed up for . . . can we expect some of the drills will involve math tests like this one? Since my brain is as old - - - and about as bad - - - as my eyes, I could be in real trouble.

    But, then, perhaps that explains why I can see a 9mm hole in the target at 7 yards, but not at 25 yards. At 25 yards, that hole is way smaller than 9mm. Uh . . . right???

  9. #39
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyrodr View Post
    can we expect some of the drills will involve math tests like this one?
    No way
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  10. #40
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    I'm not so sure those tiny dry fire targets I posted are worthwhile. I used them a bit in dry practice last night and the 1/40 and 1/80 are just so small that it is like spot shooting. Except to be realistic, I need to hold over - quite a bit on the 1/80 target. At three yards, that's like a scaled 240 yard shot. Without the feedback of knowing I hit or didn't, it doesn't seem useful. The 1/20 wasn't so bad though - that's like a 60 yard target when used at 3 yards.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
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