Beretta APX

[Hot Cereal]

Yea I’ve read about how difficult the APX is to install/adjust sights.

I’ve watched some videos of guys torture testing the APX. The gun seems to fire and cycle pretty well, but in both the MAC video and some guy named Parker Fawbush the trigger would not reset without being pushed forward. Has this issue been corrected by Beretta? What is causing the trigger bar to get stuck? Seems like a pistol designed for the kind of use the APX is designed for should have to get a lot dirtier than it did in Fawbush’s video to have that issue.

[arcfide]

Yea I’ve read about how difficult the APX is to install/adjust sights.

I’ve watched some videos of guys torture testing the APX. The gun seems to fire and cycle pretty well, but in both the MAC video and some guy named Parker Fawbush the trigger would not reset without being pushed forward. Has this issue been corrected by Beretta? What is causing the trigger bar to get stuck? Seems like a pistol designed for the kind of use the APX is designed for should have to get a lot dirtier than it did in Fawbush’s video to have that issue.

I don't know that the issue has been corrected, or even that it is considered an issue. There's mostly a single spring responsible for the trigger return force, which is also responsible for the feeling of the trigger take-up. This means that there's a balance between the felt weight of the take-up on the trigger, which Beretta has optimized to be very light and feel negligible, to the amount of force that is available to push the trigger forward during reset. A strong return spring would also allow the trigger to reset more distinctly in the conditions that MAC's video demonstrates, but it would also increase the felt weight of the take up on the trigger beyond what some people would find acceptable.

I think there are some other guns designed in this way that have also had issues with trigger reset in MAC's videos. I think that's just one of the ways that a gun can have reduced functionality in such cases.

[Alpha Sierra]

I don't know that the issue has been corrected, or even that it is considered an issue. There's mostly a single spring responsible for the trigger return force, which is also responsible for the feeling of the trigger take-up. This means that there's a balance between the felt weight of the take-up on the trigger, which Beretta has optimized to be very light and feel negligible, to the amount of force that is available to push the trigger forward during reset. A strong return spring would also allow the trigger to reset more distinctly in the conditions that MAC's video demonstrates, but it would also increase the felt weight of the take up on the trigger beyond what some people would find acceptable.

I think there are some other guns designed in this way that have also had issues with trigger reset in MAC's videos. I think that's just one of the ways that a gun can have reduced functionality in such cases.

The issue isn't only how much force can the trigger return spring produce. The issue is also how much contamination in the trigger mechanism does it take to overcome the force that the TRS can produce.

Some firearm designs are such that they provide relief for dirt and crap to go and move away from the path of certain moving parts.

[arcfide]

Some firearm designs are such that they provide relief for dirt and crap to go and move away from the path of certain moving parts.

One of the things missing from MAC's video is that there isn't a real diagnosis to identify what particular part was limiting the motion of the trigger. He just counts it as a failure and moves on. I understand why he does that, but it's less than helpful for determining where the design actually encountered an issue.

Beretta has also released a set of torture test videos demonstrating their own testing methods applied to one of the testing standards, I think, if anyone is interested. They cover water, sand, mud, and cold, I think, IIRC. That can give an idea of what Beretta had in mind when they were designing the pistol, most likely.

[Alpha Sierra]

One of the things missing from MAC's video is that there isn't a real diagnosis to identify what particular part was limiting the motion of the trigger. He just counts it as a failure and moves on. I understand why he does that, but it's less than helpful for determining where the design actually encountered an issue.

To be completely honest, I put very little stock in those torture tests. I'm never, EVER going to intentionally subject any firearm I own (regardless of its purpose) to such abuse. And the chances of any one of my firearms ever encountering such conditions during any extreme of use I can give them are so small that I consider them zero.

Unlike some here, I don't stop considering certain firearms (or worse get rid of them) just because they might have failed some internet guy's torture test regimen. No matter who that internet guy is.

[arcfide]

To be completely honest, I put very little stock in those torture tests. I'm never, EVER going to intentionally subject any firearm I own (regardless of its purpose) to such abuse. And the chances of any one of my firearms ever encountering such conditions during any extreme of use I can give them are so small that I consider them zero.

Unlike some here, I don't stop considering certain firearms (or worse get rid of them) just because they might have failed some internet guy's torture test regimen. No matter who that internet guy is.

MAC officially agrees with you. :-)

[Hot Cereal]

To be completely honest, I put very little stock in those torture tests. I'm never, EVER going to intentionally subject any firearm I own (regardless of its purpose) to such abuse. And the chances of any one of my firearms ever encountering such conditions during any extreme of use I can give them are so small that I consider them zero.

Unlike some here, I don't stop considering certain firearms (or worse get rid of them) just because they might have failed some internet guy's torture test regimen. No matter who that internet guy is.

I’m considering the APX for duty use so exposure to those types of elements and functionality is important. I thought it was interesting that the gun would cycle but not reset the trigger. I don’t know if I’d consider that a failure since the gun was still able to fire even if it needed a little help.

One of the things missing from MAC's video is that there isn't a real diagnosis to identify what particular part was limiting the motion of the trigger. He just counts it as a failure and moves on. I understand why he does that, but it's less than helpful for determining where the design actually encountered an issue.

Beretta has also released a set of torture test videos demonstrating their own testing methods applied to one of the testing standards, I think, if anyone is interested. They cover water, sand, mud, and cold, I think, IIRC. That can give an idea of what Beretta had in mind when they were designing the pistol, most likely.

I watched all the Beretta videos. One thing I noticed was that the guy shooting the gun in the Beretta videos shook and shook the gun before he shot it after the sand test. I’m not sure that’s realistic for someone to do in the real world. However, I was impressed by those videos. I think MAC as hard as he tries not to, ends up showing some bias, even if he doesn’t intend to. He raved about the P320 during its testing and I noticed that he didn’t cover the gun up with crud nearly as much as he has in other tests. Could just be the evolution of his methods or just they way it went that day, but I’m not sure his tests are much data since he only runs 10 rounds through the gun at each element. To his credit he even says the tests aren’t scientific and are for entertainment purposes only. I do think he needs to wipe the gun dry after he cleans them off during the elements test. Water can act as an adhesive for some of the elements he’s exposing the guns to.

I would still like to know why the APX TRS can’t overcome the crud his tests introduced to it. If I drop my gun in a sand storm it’s ok, but drop it in a pile of dirt it won’t reset? Just seems like dramatically different results. I’d love to know more because I think the APX has a lot of features the P320 is missing.

[Alpha Sierra]

I’m considering the APX for duty use so exposure to those types of elements and functionality is important..

For sure a pistol that will be exposed in a holster needs to work. If we watched the same video, the gun worked all the way through mud during the simulated drops into dirt, sand, and mud. It choked when it was deliberately buried in wet sand.

Serious question, do you honestly think that burying the pistol in sand and the other exaggerated contaminants that those internet guys use is a relevant analog to the worst you'll put it through?

What's the common refrain I hear about duty guns? Carried a lot, used a little.

[Navin Johnson]

Regional soil composition and dirt/sand particle size is quite different and likely has a bigger effect than how long it sits in the goo before firing 10 rounds.

What Military or major LE organizations use MAC for their testing?

The Canik did the best in his test and are available from his website (shocking).

The APX is likely a great gun in a crowded market of 50 kinds of the same thing.

[Hot Cereal]

For sure a pistol that will be exposed in a holster needs to work.

Serious question, do you honestly think that burying the pistol in mud and the other exaggerated contaminants that those internet guys use is a relevant analog to the worst you'll put it through?

What's the common refrain I hear about duty guns? Carried a lot, used a little.

Think about it like this- you’re fighting with a homicidal suspect on the side of the road at 0 dark 30, alone. You drop your gun, or while holstered you get pinned into in a dirt bank, snow bank, gravel, sand, mud puddle, etc. If the difference between seeing your family again or being carried by 6 is that gun going bang again and again those kinds of tests matter. In the Fawbush video he literally just poured dirt on the gun and it jammed the trigger up from resetting.

Perhaps a stronger TRS combined with the green striker unit would produce a stronger reset and acceptable trigger weight.