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Thread: Human Targets

  1. #101
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    and....you had a bunch of folks working on it constantly and repetitively for a particular goal score, in which case folks start building habits. I prefer something like a failure drill or box drill on two targets....but that's just me.
    I tend to think that anyone who shoots the FAST with regular success under 6 seconds, is probably working on every aspect of their shooting rather than just using the FAST as a drill (rather than a test) to do well on the FAST.

    The FAST completed successfully under 6 seconds (in my experience) is primarily a test of manipulations; concealed draw speed and reload speed being primarily the largest determining factors to success with the FAST.

    To get there requires a hell of a lot of time drilling those two component aspects of the FAST. I've seen Master class level IPSC shooters who can't get under a 6 second FAST with their competition guns. It's a HARD test to complete under 5 seconds for those who work really, really hard at it. And I really don't know anyone at that level who drills only the FAST enough that it would ingrain bad habits.
    Last edited by Clobbersaurus; 09-05-2016 at 02:02 PM. Reason: Can't write good
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    In fairness to Todd, as regards the tactical appropriateness of the FAST, the primary objective of the FAST was marketing. When I think of Todd, I think of the FAST, then appendix holsters, then the color orange. Todd was pretty open as to modeling the FAST on Rogers ratings, and it was brilliantly successful.
    It worked. It was a test that has become a drill due to that marketing and people's desire to have a "rating" at something and dedicate a bunch of time to that. I doubt that Bill Rogers wanted people gaming his "test"....which has happened because people are seeking a "black belt" in gun fu. This has been going on forever of folks trying to find a means to measure bad ass without killing each other to get a rating at how deadly they are. That was not being judgemental, just an observation. The level of dedication it takes to acquire the skills for various "black belts" in your discipline of choice is impressive and I would never scoff at that. To shoot some of the scores at Rogers, some of the times on the FAST (some are pushing half of the 6.42 I shot the one time I was tested on it) are awesome. Many of these things take dedicated work. People focused on success at some of these things are in fact good marketing and successful and that is just good old fashion American success, which is good.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  3. #103
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    And if we think that there are not a crap load of folks doing it over and over to improve their "number", then we need to get out more.
    I neither said nor implied that.

    Lots of things get misused by people who don't understand them. Guns, for example.

    EDITED:

    That was excessively snarky of me.

    I don't know if you ever sat in on one of Todd's classes or not, but he ran students through the F.A.S.T. once in the beginning and once at the end of each day, and he took notes, entering all the students' times into his own private spreadsheet.

    In the interim, there was no "practicing the F.A.S.T.", although there were a lot of lessons on, e.g.: Drawing quickly to a low probability target, smoothly executing reloads, and controlling recoil and sight tracking for rapid follow-up shots at a pace dictated by sight picture and target.

    Some people might think this was all rehearsal for the runs at the F.A.S.T. done at the end of day one, the beginning of day two, and the end of the class.

    More perceptive people might think Todd was meticulously recording students' performance on those subsequent F.A.S.T. runs to see if he had effectively imparted those skills to them and if his curriculum might need tweaking.
    Last edited by Tamara; 09-05-2016 at 02:54 PM.
    Books. Bikes. Boomsticks.

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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara View Post
    I neither said nor implied that.

    Lots of things get misused by people who don't understand them. Guns, for example.

    EDITED:

    That was excessively snarky of me.

    I don't know if you ever sat in on one of Todd's classes or not, but he ran students through the F.A.S.T. once in the beginning and once at the end of each day, and he took notes, entering all the students' times into his own private spreadsheet.

    In the interim, there was no "practicing the F.A.S.T.", although there were a lot of lessons on, e.g.: Drawing quickly to a low probability target, smoothly executing reloads, and controlling recoil and sight tracking for rapid follow-up shots at a pace dictated by sight picture and target.

    Some people might think this was all rehearsal for the runs at the F.A.S.T. done at the end of day one, the beginning of day two, and the end of the class.

    More perceptive people might think Todd was meticulously recording students' performance on those subsequent F.A.S.T. runs to see if he had effectively imparted those skills to them and if his curriculum might need tweaking.
    Which is how all solid instructors use various tests they come up with. Ours is the "2 second standards" that I am sure somebody is committing a crime with in our name. In the past, these drills tended to stay with instructors and taught used and tested in context. Social media and speed and ease of communications combined with simple human nature have changed all that. Then you have the simple cheapness rampant in our world as far as trying to buy performance. Right now, some dude is shooting the FAST over and over to get under 5 seconds (or 4, or whatever is the new lightning standard)....has "proven" you don't need some fancy classes. Will likely have it posted on YouTube or replicated in basement range with Airsoft.....
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  5. #105
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    Which is how all solid instructors use various tests they come up with. Ours is the "2 second standards" that I am sure somebody is committing a crime with in our name. In the past, these drills tended to stay with instructors and taught used and tested in context. Social media and speed and ease of communications combined with simple human nature have changed all that. Then you have the simple cheapness rampant in our world as far as trying to buy performance. Right now, some dude is shooting the FAST over and over to get under 5 seconds (or 4, or whatever is the new lightning standard)....has "proven" you don't need some fancy classes. Will likely have it posted on YouTube or replicated in basement range with Airsoft.....
    Which is why I'll use my weak hand to retain the baby in the washtub while pouring the bathwater out the window.
    Books. Bikes. Boomsticks.

    I can explain it to you. I can’t understand it for you.

  6. #106
    Member MVS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    Which is why I have shot it exactly once. Because it was a "test". And if we think that there are not a crap load of folks doing it over and over to improve their "number", then we need to get out more. That was unfortunately what happened when I drifted out into the world for a short time and was sitting in total awe of the world where literally thousands of people are shooting drills and comparing numbers via social media. I ran screaming back to revolver forum and have been in hiding ever since. It is a phenomenon that I am just not ready for. Because of many folks here having a relationship with Todd (myself included), "we" get it....most don't.





    Here is a factor I often talk about and most will never get. We never factor what our brains do with "time" during crisis. It is a factor that relates to many people doing things in shootings they cannot replicate. I saw this often, we have a member of this forum who performed literally "off the charts" in a OIS making multiple hits at an impressive distance in a time not likely replicable. I have had this experience myself, and have multiple cases of amazing shots that the shooters didn't think we're a big deal because things were so slow......to them. It is one of the reasons that our training program is built around a ton of reps to over learn a response in a time when it can be done at 100% so the brain knows how to do it at a sub conscious level and it is easily applied in a situation where your brain is also warping time in your favor. Folks can disagree, call b.s., or start chanting "burn the witch", but I have enough of these first hand to just nod and go "chant away". We have choices in how to train. There will be consequences to those choices if we ever need it. Some good, some bad. We hope that our choices will yield positive results.
    Whether or not I or anyone else agrees with everything you say, I really appreciate your contributions here and am glad you venture out of the revolver section. Interestingly enough, I appreciate what you have to say even more after seeing your presentation at the Tactical Conference this year on the Habits of Successful gunfighters.

  7. #107
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    Whether or not I or anyone else agrees with everything you say, I really appreciate your contributions here and am glad you venture out of the revolver section. Interestingly enough, I appreciate what you have to say even more after seeing your presentation at the Tactical Conference this year on the Habits of Successful gunfighters.
    This deserves a repost (I gave you a "like" as well).

    I'm waiting patiently for Nyeti to join our awesome Beretta 92D thread in the Semi-Auto pistols forum (because we need more Nyeti in the Semi-Auto pistols forum and the 92D is the most revolver like auto pistol thread that we have).....
    "Next time somebody says USPSA or IPSC is all hosing, junk punch them." - Les Pepperoni
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  8. #108
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    Nyeti is one of the few people whose comments I pay close attention to on the internet...
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Nyeti is one of the few people whose comments I pay close attention to on the internet...
    Funny, that feeling is mutual. Kind of nice because we have legions on the net who think we are both under qualified to have an opinion.....
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  10. #110
    Site Supporter Maple Syrup Actual's Avatar
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    Sooner or later we're going to find a guy who exclusively uses USPSA in lieu of tactical training, who finally gets convinced to run defensive drills with anatomical targets to cope with real-life scenarios, and who responds by simply shooting the FAST "drill" over and over.

    Not sure exactly what will happen when this person is discovered, but I'm sure it's going to involve an apocalypse featuring an army of undead scarecrows, scattering straw everywhere as they rampage across the land.

    Good thing I've got a flamethrower.

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    This is a thread where I built a boat I designed and which I very occasionally update with accounts of using it, which is really fun as long as I'm not driving over logs and blowing up the outboard.
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ilding-a-skiff

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