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Thread: Human Targets

  1. #211
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    Human Targets

    Quote Originally Posted by 11B10 View Post

    I did spot one thing you said ^^^ that I know I can help you with. I started a thread about the Gripmaster, a hand/finger strengthening device. It is #1 - NOT a gimmick as they have been around for years. #2 - I have observed real changes (and extremely steady sight pictures while dry firing) in my trigger press (with both hands) since I began using mine just a month ago. I have pretty nasty osteo - and, well, please read the post I am referring to. Let me just stress that unless you currently have very low hand strength, you should buy the XX/13 LB. model.
    Ok cool. I looked at the Gripmaster on Amazon; interesting. The options show stengths by color, would you know which color corresponds to XX/13 lb?

    Sunnydays is doing great. She is snoozling here next to me in the house; busy morning spent chasing lizards and monitoring the progress on the digging at the back of the cottage.

    Last edited by RJ; 09-13-2016 at 01:45 PM.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11B10 View Post
    Holy crap! Shades of Audie Murphy!
    He was a tough dude...but a lot of guys back then were tough dudes. It was a hard life. He had enlisted in the Army 28th Infantry Co C and shipped out from the Presidio to the Philippines in 1901. That was Moro Insurrection duty.... His name was William Elias Hicks.

    According to Wikipedia......The Regiment first saw combat service from December 1901 to January 1904 during the Philippine Insurrection, where the Regiment was heavily involved in counter guerilla operations. Elements of the Regiment were first deployed into the rebellious provinces on Luzon Island, but most of the 28th Infantry's action was seen later, on the island of Mindanao. The Regiment subdued the Moro guerrillas at Pantar, then at the walled city of Jolo, most notably leading the American assault during the savage battle of Suliman Mountain.

    He was wounded in combat (and apparently pretty badly but recovered). He was discharged March of 1905 . He came back home (Alabama was home) and went to work as a coal miner and that is what set the stage for the events of July 28 1920 . Carbon Hill Alabama was the site of a Coal Miner strike by workers of the Galloway Coal Company. The union miners were striking for better conditions and the mine had brought in "scabs" to work the mine while the miners were on strike. A black miner named Arthur Hughes was in the Galloway Coal Commissary berating the replacement miners. Deputy Ben Barrett "had a few words with the negro and struck him" according to the newspaper ( The Mountain Eagle of Jasper and Walker County Alabama) . Hicks heard the account from Hughes and approached Barrett asking him why he struck Hughes and "a row resulted". He claimed Barrett called him a very bad name and went home to get his 2 automatic pistols to make Barrett apologize....It was different time back then and this is HORRIBLE decision making in our current times.....as to the pistols we know at least 1 was a very new Colt 1911 manufactured in June 1920.

    Between six and seven pm Hicks and several other men were at the public well. Deputy Barrett and a policeman Baker came walking up supposedly to disarm Hicks as they had heard he was armed. According to the paper Hicks' friends say Barrett opened fire and shot twice and wounded Hicks before Hicks fired. "Barrett was then shot twice through the body and staggered up onto the sidewalk tried to lean against a building and sank down expiring in a moment" (looking for a place to nap from earlier in this thread?). After Barrett fell Hicks turned his attention to Baker who had stepped behind a post and started firing at Hicks. According to the paper......"No doubt Baker saved his life by stepping behind a post as Hicks was a crack shot having served as a sharpshooter in the Spanish American War". Finding his guns empty Hicks crossed the railroad and started out in a southerly direction reloading as he went.

    Alexander McDade , a non union miner who had been at work that day tried to halt Hicks and when he refused to halt McDade stepped behind a tree and shot him. Hicks said "Come out from behind that tree and fight fair" and according to the paper..."McDade sacrificed his life by taking the dare for he stepped out from behind the tree and and Hicks opened fire, hitting him every shot. Running up to McDade Hicks hit him on the head with a pistol saying "You killed me and I'll kill you"..... (or as Nathan Bedford Forrest once said "No damn man kills me and lives"....)


    "A number of people followed Hicks into the bushes and shot him down with shotguns. With his body riddled with bullets the man lived until the next day and died at a Birmingham infirmary."... according to the paper. According to death certificate he was wounded in leg, abdomen and chest. He died 26 hours after the gunfight and according to family history he died from lead poisoning, not from the wounds themselves (my guess is the wounds got septic) and they brought his body and guns home on a railroad hand cart. He left behind a wife and 7 children one of whom was my mother's mother. Now, 100 years later we all agree that fighting to the death over an insult is clearly not the best course of action, but back then in that place and time honor was something people were willing to die for. Right or wrong, it is just the way it was. For similar contemporary historical incidents check out the Matewan Massacre in West Virginia earlier that year (May 19, 1920) where mining town labor issues led to gunfire.

    Interstingly enough there is a mention of this in the McDade family of Walker County Alabama history where it says....

    "JAMES OLIVER McDADE, born September 15, 1894; died July 28, 1920, buried in the McDade Cemetery. This young man was killed by WILLIAM HICKS, who shot him in self defense.
    HICKS became a target after shooting and killing a mining deputy, BEN BARNETT, after an argument escalated over the deputy beating and kicking. ARTHUR HUGHES who was on strike with the miners in Carbon Hill, AL. HICKS, a Union supporter was the only person to come to the man's aid."

    This account puts a little different spin on it than the newspaper article and while I would expect a family history from the family of someone my relative killed to be something more.....hostile...I found this to be pretty fair and most likely true as it matches with our own oral family history that Hicks had stepped in to defend Hughes even though he was a black man in 1920s Alabama because "everyone is black in the coal mines" and that is what started the snowball rolling down hill that became the avalanche that left 3 people dead (and a bystander wounded).

    From our perspective, this is why I am so big on actually hitting what you actually aim at and aiming at important stuff because rolling out a target the size of a bedsheet and declaring any hit on it as "good enough" is a terrible disservice to students. We know there are some hard tough dudes out there, Look at William Hicks. He was a combat veteran of the Moro insurrection who had been wounded and knew what getting injured in combat was like who worked in a coal mine, had a strong sense of honor and willing to fight to the death for it.......not the kind of guy that is going to curl up and go fetal from a wound to the butt cheek. This guy was shot first by BOTH guys he killed that day...yet he killed them both nearly instantly so maybe there is something to what the bullets actually punch holes in not just hitting them "somewhere".
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 09-13-2016 at 02:30 PM.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11B10 View Post
    Thanks for asking.

    Yes, I have shot a j-frame, mostly in .38 +p, but am well aware of the joy (LOL) of shooting .357. More background might be in order. I used to powerlift - a form of weightlifting for the insane. I've always been a BMF, shrinking in later years but still have a good set of hands, in spite of the osteo. Recently I discovered a device I posted a thread about - the Gripmaster - that has really helped my grip. Very highly recommended if you know anybody in need - check it out.
    Osteo plus J frame - take a hard look at 38 wadcutters. I carry +P Gold dot in my J frame because I'm required to do so. wadcutters make a lot of sense for air weight J frames. This thread will get you started.

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ter-in-snubbie

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins View Post
    Ok cool. I looked at the Gripmaster on Amazon; interesting. The options show stengths by color, would you know which color corresponds to XX/13 lb?

    Sunnydays is doing great. She is snoozling here next to me in the house; busy morning spent chasing lizards and monitoring the progress on the digging at the back of the cottage.



    Great picture of Sunnydays! The color given for the 13 lb.Gripmaster is orange, Rich, but mine sure doesn't look orange. Prohand tells you to buy a weaker one, then move up, but of course,they sell more doing that. I advise you to get the strongest model because even if it's a challenge at first, it won't take you long to "get there." When I find something that works, I like to tell people. Hope it works as well for you as it has for me.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Osteo plus J frame - take a hard look at 38 wadcutters. I carry +P Gold dot in my J frame because I'm required to do so. wadcutters make a lot of sense for air weight J frames. This thread will get you started.

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ter-in-snubbie

    Thanks for the advice, HCM.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    He was a tough dude...but a lot of guys back then were tough dudes. It was a hard life. He had enlisted in the Army 28th Infantry Co C and shipped out from the Presidio to the Philippines in 1901. That was Moro Insurrection duty.... His name was William Elias Hicks.

    According to Wikipedia......The Regiment first saw combat service from December 1901 to January 1904 during the Philippine Insurrection, where the Regiment was heavily involved in counter guerilla operations. Elements of the Regiment were first deployed into the rebellious provinces on Luzon Island, but most of the 28th Infantry's action was seen later, on the island of Mindanao. The Regiment subdued the Moro guerrillas at Pantar, then at the walled city of Jolo, most notably leading the American assault during the savage battle of Suliman Mountain.

    He was wounded in combat (and apparently pretty badly but recovered). He was discharged March of 1905 . He came back home (Alabama was home) and went to work as a coal miner and that is what set the stage for the events of July 28 1920 . Carbon Hill Alabama was the site of a Coal Miner strike by workers of the Galloway Coal Company. The union miners were striking for better conditions and the mine had brought in "scabs" to work the mine while the miners were on strike. A black miner named Arthur Hughes was in the Galloway Coal Commissary berating the replacement miners. Deputy Ben Barrett "had a few words with the negro and struck him" according to the newspaper ( The Mountain Eagle of Jasper and Walker County Alabama) . Hicks heard the account from Hughes and approached Barrett asking him why he struck Hughes and "a row resulted". He claimed Barrett called him a very bad name and went home to get his 2 automatic pistols to make Barrett apologize....It was different time back then and this is HORRIBLE decision making in our current times.....as to the pistols we know at least 1 was a very new Colt 1911 manufactured in June 1920.

    Between six and seven pm Hicks and several other men were at the public well. Deputy Barrett and a policeman Baker came walking up supposedly to disarm Hicks as they had heard he was armed. According to the paper Hicks' friends say Barrett opened fire and shot twice and wounded Hicks before Hicks fired. "Barrett was then shot twice through the body and staggered up onto the sidewalk tried to lean against a building and sank down expiring in a moment" (looking for a place to nap from earlier in this thread?). After Barrett fell Hicks turned his attention to Baker who had stepped behind a post and started firing at Hicks. According to the paper......"No doubt Baker saved his life by stepping behind a post as Hicks was a crack shot having served as a sharpshooter in the Spanish American War". Finding his guns empty Hicks crossed the railroad and started out in a southerly direction reloading as he went.

    Alexander McDade , a non union miner who had been at work that day tried to halt Hicks and when he refused to halt McDade stepped behind a tree and shot him. Hicks said "Come out from behind that tree and fight fair" and according to the paper..."McDade sacrificed his life by taking the dare for he stepped out from behind the tree and and Hicks opened fire, hitting him every shot. Running up to McDade Hicks hit him on the head with a pistol saying "You killed me and I'll kill you"..... (or as Nathan Bedford Forrest once said "No damn man kills me and lives"....)


    "A number of people followed Hicks into the bushes and shot him down with shotguns. With his body riddled with bullets the man lived until the next day and died at a Birmingham infirmary."... according to the paper. According to death certificate he was wounded in leg, abdomen and chest. He died 26 hours after the gunfight and according to family history he died from lead poisoning, not from the wounds themselves (my guess is the wounds got septic) and they brought his body and guns home on a railroad hand cart. He left behind a wife and 7 children one of whom was my mother's mother. Now, 100 years later we all agree that fighting to the death over an insult is clearly not the best course of action, but back then in that place and time honor was something people were willing to die for. Right or wrong, it is just the way it was. For similar contemporary historical incidents check out the Matewan Massacre in West Virginia earlier that year (May 19, 1920) where mining town labor issues led to gunfire.

    Interstingly enough there is a mention of this in the McDade family of Walker County Alabama history where it says....

    "JAMES OLIVER McDADE, born September 15, 1894; died July 28, 1920, buried in the McDade Cemetery. This young man was killed by WILLIAM HICKS, who shot him in self defense.
    HICKS became a target after shooting and killing a mining deputy, BEN BARNETT, after an argument escalated over the deputy beating and kicking. ARTHUR HUGHES who was on strike with the miners in Carbon Hill, AL. HICKS, a Union supporter was the only person to come to the man's aid."

    This account puts a little different spin on it than the newspaper article and while I would expect a family history from the family of someone my relative killed to be something more.....hostile...I found this to be pretty fair and most likely true as it matches with our own oral family history that Hicks had stepped in to defend Hughes even though he was a black man in 1920s Alabama because "everyone is black in the coal mines" and that is what started the snowball rolling down hill that became the avalanche that left 3 people dead (and a bystander wounded).

    From our perspective, this is why I am so big on actually hitting what you actually aim at and aiming at important stuff because rolling out a target the size of a bedsheet and declaring any hit on it as "good enough" is a terrible disservice to students. We know there are some hard tough dudes out there, Look at William Hicks. He was a combat veteran of the Moro insurrection who had been wounded and knew what getting injured in combat was like who worked in a coal mine, had a strong sense of honor and willing to fight to the death for it.......not the kind of guy that is going to curl up and go fetal from a wound to the butt cheek. This guy was shot first by BOTH guys he killed that day...yet he killed them both nearly instantly so maybe there is something to what the bullets actually punch holes in not just hitting them "somewhere".

    When men were men and so were the women. Seriously, I'm in awe - thanks for sharing that tale, Randy.

  7. #217
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    Just realized that for some unexplained reason I typed "Alexander" McDade instead of Oliver McDade. His name was Oliver McDade.
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 09-17-2016 at 06:09 AM.

  8. #218
    Member SsevenN's Avatar
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    This thread is overflowing with knowledge, very new to p-f and I'm struggling to take it all in. Thanks to all the knowledgeable and professional people contributing.

  9. #219
    I agree with Mr. Givens and have seen it from combat action. We need to keep in mind that in this situations, seconds are what matters. Forget hollywood or TV, and quite honestly the ER (my wife was an ER RN for 20 years and have spoke with a lot of ER Docs and nurses about this myself). The human body is a hell of a machine and will try and survive. I have witnessed one lung and two lung hits on people, even with a rifle that continued to fight (granted not long), but do recall they shot at least 3 other shots before passing. We have a need to know the limits, to survive and encounter as much as possible without any injuries. To do this is to except the reality and limits of our rescue gear. Mr. Cirillo wrote in his book how many pistol bullets also do little effective damage. This is why if in situation, and forced to engage, we do, then we move buying time and distance on our side, to increase the ability of the limitation's of the ammunition to do it's work. I state this as the vast majority of us here, strive to perfect our abilities and not settle. Studying Grays Anatomy is great, talking with ER nurse's and doctor's and EMS who have dealt with it better.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins View Post
    Ok cool. I looked at the Gripmaster on Amazon; interesting. The options show stengths by color, would you know which color corresponds to XX/13 lb?

    Sunnydays is doing great. She is snoozling here next to me in the house; busy morning spent chasing lizards and monitoring the progress on the digging at the back of the cottage.



    Rich, I'm not sure just why I began rereading this thread, but I'm glad I did. Don't know if you ever got the Gripmaster, but allow me to give you an update. For whatever reason, I stopped using my Gripmaster. My hands of late had been giving me some grief, which I attributed to the nasty cold weather here - and, getting older. The lights didn't start going back on until a week ago, when I found the Gripmaster under some paperwork. I started using it right away and it's truly amazing how much better my hands now are. All I know is that it most definitely works for me.

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