Safety equipped pistols will get me kilt in the streetz?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Amusing thread. LOL. I agree with the point that an undertrained idiot is not safe with any gun. There are/were NDs with good old DA revolvers. Various factors like sympathetic squeezes of both hands, a trip, startle or a bump into you is enough to pull the trigger on a DA gun. It's really finger on the trigger and OOPS!

So is the issue really that even with the well trained operator (or fat old guy civilian) adding a safety that needs to be swept off might increase the probability of forgetting to do it under stress. Or is it that the untrained idiot will be more likely to forget the safety and get killed on the street?

I'll pass on outing folks in a safe space. If they read this and want to share - let them. Not to divert but it's also fun to watch someone who is high level lose their red dot for some reason - like they didn't swipe the safety.

My point is that high stress can take out the best at times, but is that enough of a risk to totally denounce the platform as compared to the high stress being more likely to take out the untrained (Yerkes-jerk-off function)?

With a small anecdotal sample, is there really an answer. Some 1911 guy nearly shot my foot. A friend of mine worked on a case where an officer killed herself putting a G19 in old box and boom.

[StraitR]

My random thoughts...


- Every long gun you've ever picked up has had a manual safety on it (I'm sure there are a few odd exceptions, but they're exceptions). Whether you choose to use the safety is a conscious choice, but it's there, because well, it's always there on a long gun. This is not the case with handguns.

- Almost everyone has experience with an AR at this point. People (should) have been manipulating safeties on the AR since day one. Use an AR, use a safety, it's pretty simple and ingrained. We've had a great discussion about AR safety use, general consensus went something like... "Sights on, Safety Off - Sights off, Safety On" (that's the shorthand version, look up the thread for the long version). AR's are cool and socially very accepted in gun circles. As such, having a safety and using it on an AR will not get you killed in the streets.

- Not every handgun has a safety, so it's not obvious when your holding a handgun that you need to run a safety (See AR example). Some people change handgun platforms more than their underwear. Having a safety on your handgun is generally not socially acceptable in gun circles these days. As such, having a manual safety on your handgun will get you killed in the streets.

- There's no guarantees of performance under stress (for 99% of us), safety or no safety.

- Dedication. Use what you want, or what works best for you, but to the best of your ability, put in the physical and mental work.

- None of this is rocket science.

[Robinson]

In the matter of safeties...my finger is my safety. If I don't have my finger on the trigger it doesn't shoot. PERIOD.

Well hell, I aughta just drop the "L" from "C&L" when I carry then. Condition Zero FTW.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That's an old debate that resolves down to trigger pull.

A 1911 without it's safety on.
A Glock
A DA revolver

What's the difference except trigger pull? We know that all these triggers can be overcome if you have your finger on the trigger and have various incidents. No one has really, really plotted training vs. trigger pull vs. stress levels vs. type of incidents (sympathy squeezes, trips). The probability of an accident with finger on the trigger probably swamps the other factors.

[Robinson]

That's an old debate that resolves down to trigger pull.

A 1911 without it's safety on.
A Glock
A DA revolver

What's the difference except trigger pull?

Well for one thing the 1911 also requires the grip safety to be depressed. But there is no way in hell I would carry a cocked 1911 with the safety off, in fact I don't have the safety off a cocked 1911 unless the sights are on a target in preparation to fire. To me it's a lot like the safety on an AR. Hopefully the sarcasm in my previous post is obvious.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Well, then you get the grip safety argument that folks don't get a firm grip or their hand gets damaged and can't activate the safety! This makes me so confused. I guess I need one of those old J frames with a grip safety! If one had a NY Glock style trigger pull on a 1911 - would carry with just "C" condition? Anthony Wiener might want to know in NYC.

[MolonLabe416]

Carrying a pistol with a manual safety won't get you killed; not being proficient with your chosen tool will get you killed.

[Robinson]

Well, then you get the grip safety argument that folks don't get a firm grip or their hand gets damaged and can't activate the safety! This makes me so confused. I guess I need one of those old J frames with a grip safety! If one had a NY Glock style trigger pull on a 1911 - would carry with just "C" condition? Anthony Wiener might want to know in NYC.

The 1911, being a single action firearm, relies on use of its safety mechanisms in order to be operated, well, safely. Using the thumb safety properly makes accidental discharges much less likely. The grip safety, though some folks don't like them, also makes it less likely the trigger will be pulled somehow when not in a proper firing grip.

I guess in my mind someone who chooses to operate the 1911 pistol first familiarizes him/herself in its usage to the point that a proper grip is attained naturally because of repetition. I admit that one time during a training event years ago I failed to depress the grip safety sufficiently and the gun did not fire on the first attempt. My fault, not the fault of the safety design -- at least in my opinion. The operation of the thumb safety becomes very natural with lots of repetition because it's just in the right place. I guess I'm saying its ergonomics assist in assuring consistent operation.

I actually think the optional thumb safety on the S&W M&P is a pretty good idea and is designed well. Not a bad option for a 1911 user who wants to transition to a striker fired pistol. And in that case since the trigger is not a 1911 trigger a grip safety isn't necessary.

[Corey]

I actually think the optional thumb safety on the S&W M&P is a pretty good idea and is designed well. Not a bad option for a 1911 user who wants to transition to a striker fired pistol. And in that case since the trigger is not a 1911 trigger a grip safety isn't necessary.

This is my thinking as well. I used a 1911 for a couple of decades and then switched to an M&P 9mm a few years ago. My M&P came without the thumb safety, but I got the parts and added the thumb safety. My reasoning is: 1. I can go back to the 1911 if I want to and not have to retrain myself on the thumb safety, and 2. AIWB

[jiminycricket]

Many perspectives in this thread I agree with:

Avoid being flippant in changing platforms.

Dry fire like heck.

If someone has trouble remembering the safety, then I have doubts of them remembering to keep their finger off the trigger and vice-versa.

Make certain the ergonomics work for you.

I'd like to add another manual-safety issue that people tend to bring up is if a child gets ahold of the gun. I always cringe at this. Yes, an extra step might make a difference, but things have already gotten really bad if a child gets ahold of an unsecured gun. I would tell customers at the counter that a manual safety does not make the gun childproof, and if the gun is not on their person in a proper holster, then it must be locked away.

Personally I find the biggest benefit to a manual safety (and a hammer for that matter) is the additional safety cushion when re-holstering. I think that benefit outweighs any possible fear of forgetting to unsafe while under stress.