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Thread: Trigger Finger Motion or Pressing the trigger straight to the rear

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by taadski View Post
    Without taking on all the discussion permutations of "How hard should I grip the gun", I'd like to point out that pressing the trigger cleanly without disturbing sight alignment does NOT require a "strong crush grip". And I'd go further and say that if you can't press the trigger cleanly without a strong crush grip, your trigger press mechanics likely need work.

    None of this is to say that gripping the gun firmly is bad; quite the contrary. But I believe there is (1) a tendency for overgripping tension to cause problems in a lot of shooters (in particular when adjunct parts of the upper body are involved). And (2) that a strong grip can mask trigger mechanic issues when folks are trying to learn the basics of pressing the trigger correctly. It's one of the reasons practicing one handed drills are so valuable; one can't cheat the process as effectively via grip and can therefore get better immediate visual feedback regarding their mechanics.

    Again, I'm not advocating training this way all the time, but as a means of diagnostics, I think it can be particularly helpful.
    That makes a lot of sense and, if I were a betting man, I'd bet that's exactly what JC's thought process is behind having dry fire practice being about honing and practicing a proper grip (with two hands) and perfect trigger presses (SHO/WHO practice).

  2. #32
    Excellent points in the last two posts by Taadski and Talionis. Reference grip, Robbie Leatham demonstrates how grip effects speed and not necessarily accuracy. You can shoot an A holding the pistol with just two fingers, you just can't shoot fast (and accurately) that way. So, bad grip, still shoot A's, just slower. If it takes a crush grip to shoot an A slowly, something is wrong and you should fix it.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Reference grip, Robbie Leatham demonstrates how grip effects speed and not necessarily accuracy. You can shoot an A holding the pistol with just two fingers, you just can't shoot fast (and accurately) that way. So, bad grip, still shoot A's, just slower. If it takes a crush grip to shoot an A slowly, something is wrong and you should fix it.
    This is very true. Personal anecdote reinforcing this is from my first and second stages at nationals this year: It was so hot and wet when we started shooting in the afternoon that I couldn't hang on to the gun properly to save my life, despite stippling and liquid grip (which in retrospect, I over-applied and didn't let fully dry). On the first stage, my splits were notably slower than they would be with a correct grip, but the hits were ok. On the second stage, I tried to shoot at the same speed I normally do, even with a bad grip. I had a pretty fast time but ended up nearly zeroing the stage because of mikes and noshoots. Grip shouldn't affect accuracy, but it really does matter for speed.
    Last edited by Talionis; 08-23-2016 at 12:08 PM.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Excellent points in the last two posts by Taadski and Talionis. Reference grip, Robbie Leatham demonstrates how grip effects speed and not necessarily accuracy. You can shoot an A holding the pistol with just two fingers, you just can't shoot fast (and accurately) that way. So, bad grip, still shoot A's, just slower. If it takes a crush grip to shoot an A slowly, something is wrong and you should fix it.
    Is there a video somewhere of him demonstrating this? I wouldn't perusing that material to see what other little nuggets of wisdom have the possibility of making some lights go off.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by spinmove_ View Post
    Is there a video somewhere of him demonstrating this? I wouldn't perusing that material to see what other little nuggets of wisdom have the possibility of making some lights go off.

    Not sure, but probably not. I saw it in person.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  6. #36
    One more thing, a red dot tells you a LOT, in real time, about your trigger press.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    One more thing, a red dot tells you a LOT, in real time, about your trigger press.
    I would imagine it would. Sadly I don't have the equipment to slap a red dot on a pistol nor the funds to do something like that at the moment.

  8. #38
    Site Supporter taadski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinmove_ View Post
    I would imagine it would. Sadly I don't have the equipment to slap a red dot on a pistol nor the funds to do something like that at the moment.

    I use an RDS as a trainer some also. But a laser, as CCT125US mentioned back on page two, is a cheap solution and will provide the same visual info in most indoor lit areas. It can be pretty eye opening.

  9. #39
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    I got a little bit of time yesterday to play around with "making everything right". The first thing I did was toss the medium backstrap w/o beavertail on the G19 to match my G17. In just blindly and naturally picking up both pistols I noticed that letting my finger rest naturally on the trigger puts the trigger safety directly behind the lower third of my index fingernail. Doing some reps, I find that if I do a clean "stress free press" I get zero movement two handed and the least amount of movement SHO. Obviously I need to spend some more time dry firing SHO to clean that up, but I would have to say that it is significantly improved vs. what I was seeing the past couple of weeks. I also noticed that, with this particular placement, the base of my index finger from base knuckle to middle knuckle, moves different than what it was last week and over the weekend. Particularly, it moves away from the frame of the gun, as opposed to stationary or towards it. I'll be tracking this slightly as I move forward.

    I also tried working on making my two handed grip as natural as possible while also making sure that maximum surface area of both hands are on the pistol as possible. In the past, I've stumbled upon that experience leading to the best recoil control I've ever had, so I'm trying to replicate that here. While maintaining that level of surface area contact, I then examined bending the elbows slightly as well as making some effort to flare them out. I noticed two things upon flaring them out. 1.) Flaring them out too far begins to erode on how much surface area contact I'm making with the gun. 2.) Flaring the elbows seems to activate my pecs and traps, something I remember reading somewhere around here about how that's a good thing. There does seem to be a happy medium to a point where I can flare my elbows and still make max surface area contact. I think I will practice this feeling and focus on that until my next range visit. In keeping that grip, I did notice how pressing the trigger as described above was fairly effortless and didn't seem to disturb the sights at all. Given that with this grip I seem to have the gun centerline to myself as well as underneath my dominant eye with VERY little turning of my head, if any, I'm GUESSING that I may be on to something.

    As far as overall effort being put into how hard I grip the gun, I don't seem to feel like I'm putting a ton of effort into it, but my grip as described above caused me to notice a couple more things. 1.) The flaring of the elbows does feel like it's imparting an inward pinch on the upper part of the grip. 2.) I still have grip texture imprints on both palms/fingers suggesting sufficient force of grip. I could probably exert more effort in how hard I grip, but I think that might be counter-intuitive at this stage. Whenever I start to impart more grip pressure with my support hand, I naturally want to do the same with my firing hand. Given that I DON'T want to do that with my firing hand, I'll revisit trying that later if I deem it necessary.

    At this point I think I've made a few changes that I can continue to practice. I know its just words and not pictures, but if there are any red flags in there somewhere, please let me know as I'd like to catch, mitigate, and eliminate those issues sooner rather than later.

    Thanks for everyone's help as I try to work through this. It's greatly and much appreciated.


    EDIT: One other thing I forgot to mention. In the spirit of modifying my dry fire practice routine as per JC's recommendations, I'm working really hard to not pin and hold the trigger to the rear and then cycle the slide. I'm finding that I'm having to consciously retrain myself to not do that. I'm also noticing that by not pinning the trigger, it feels like I'm pressing the trigger with less force/effort overall. Is it possible that I've been torquing the gun via trigger press effort from dry fire practicing incorrectly?
    Last edited by spinmove_; 08-24-2016 at 12:13 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by taadski View Post
    I use an RDS as a trainer some also. But a laser, as CCT125US mentioned back on page two, is a cheap solution and will provide the same visual info in most indoor lit areas. It can be pretty eye opening.
    That's true, and I do have a cheap boresighter in 9mm that I could toss in there for a couple of presses just to see what happens. Probably definitely worth a try, thanks.

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