Travis Haley - .7 second draw to headshot at 10 yds

[breakingtime91]

I've posted as to why I do the shit talking I do on him. Restating the fact that he is a shill of the highest order doesn't win me any points, but I have no absolutely zero issue pointing out someone who is ethically bankrupt and will try to sell anything to make a buck, even if it sucks.

While I know I have gotten push-back before for saying so, but we are talking about his pistol skill here, right? I remember seeing a video of him on a rooftop with a recce style rifle shooting people. I have never said a negative word about his experience, service or his ability to shoot a rifle in the manner of which he has extensive experience doing. Carrying a pistol, especially concealed, is a completely different beast. Fellow marine or not, you have to call bullshit on people or else everyone and their mother will accept it as fact, eg; instructor zero.

SO. Now that we can get the passive aggressive out of the way. I think you are right that he tries to over sell his techniques and also much rather train with Pat Mac, Defoor, Proctor, Nyeti or basically anyone. With that said, after talking to people who have shoot pistol (people I respect) he can shoot. You do have me on the concealed thing, I have no idea what his capabilities are there or if he ever does it.

[GJM]

so trigger travel and weight of the trigger don't impact how long or short the press out is? Also I understand what he is saying George, just find it to be opposite of what Ernest says. When two really good shooters say something, I kinda want to know why their opinions differ

I want to make sure that we are having a clear discussion. I have taken a course with Ernest a few years ago, been in touch with him since, and YVK took a course with him ten days ago.

So what exactly is it that Ernest is saying that you find different here? Did you take a course with him, or read it somewhere, and if so can you link that for me?

[Trooper224]

To properly evaluate this, don't we need to first study the kinesiology, drilling down to the synapse level, and then correlating this with the psychic elements, while examining the impact of external stimuli?

[breakingtime91]

I want to make sure that we are having a clear discussion. I have taken a course with Ernest a few years ago, been in touch with him since, and YVK took a course with him ten days ago.

So what exactly is it that Ernest is saying that you find different here? Did you take a course with him, or read it somewhere, and if so can you link that for me?

So were talking about efficient presentation to target. Ernest, unless this has changed, advocates for a earlier prep of the trigger/working the trigger throughout the presentation verse a very fast (sorry for using this word again) press out and then working the trigger at full extension. I understand that many here have moved to a mini press out (which seems ideal to me). If YVK wants to chime in why I am wrong/even Earnest that would be great. I am not advocating either one but am curious if I am either mixed up and both of these two guys are doing the same thing, please correct me because I am here to learn.

Video credit goes to TC and since he has posted it here before I think it should be ok that I do. TC if it is not please pm and I'll apologize.

[voodoo_man]

Changing gears...

Presentation - there is a gaming version and a real life version. The "elevator" Langdon refers to in his video above is one I see gamers do often, usually preceded by a two handed draw (rip and grip). For anyone who carries a pistol concealed for anything other than gaming, there should be a retention position built into your draw, which means you have to bring it as far up as possible before presenting it. This also is important for hand to blade to gun type confrontations.

[Mr_White]

Longer and heavier triggers take more movement and pressure on the trigger.

I'm jumping on a little bit of a tangent here, but I think this point can be significant.

It's not precisely the same as a proper DA trigger, but when I spent my time with a NY1/standard connector combo in my Glock (10.5 lb trigger pull on my gauge), I found that if I were trying to fire at/near full extension, the heavier trigger just got me to put more/harder/earlier/more-sharply-increasing pressure on the trigger than when I had stock or slightly lighter parts in the gun. I'm not sure there's any real safety benefit, beyond with sloppy administrative handling, from running that weight of trigger. I definitely feel like I am freer to get on the trigger lighter/easier/later with a Glock with a stock trigger spring and minus connector, and sweep through it cleanly. I like that actively pressing the trigger can more easily take place later in the presentation.

[breakingtime91]

I'm jumping on a little bit of a tangent here, but I think this point can be significant.

It's not precisely the same as a proper DA trigger, but when I spent my time with a NY1/standard connector combo in my Glock (10.5 lb trigger pull on my gauge), I found that if I were trying to fire at/near full extension, the heavier trigger just got me to put more/harder/earlier/more-sharply-increasing pressure on the trigger than when I had stock or slightly lighter parts in the gun. I'm not sure there's any real safety benefit, beyond with sloppy administrative handling, from running that weight of trigger. I definitely feel like I am freer to get on the trigger lighter/easier/later with a Glock with a stock trigger spring and minus connector, and sweep through it cleanly. I like that actively pressing the trigger can more easily take place later in the presentation.

Yes that is why I asked that question. Your technique with your glock trigger is great with that trigger. I don't believe and I am sure someone will tell me why I am wrong, would be great with a DA trigger. I was under the impression that Ernest Langdons technique would be better for working a DA pull and yours would be just as good if running a glock/SFA/or SAO.

[GJM]

Yes that is why I asked that question. Your technique with your glock trigger is great with that trigger. I don't believe and I am sure someone will tell me why I am wrong, would be great with a DA trigger. I was under the impression that Ernest Langdons technique would be better for working a DA pull and yours would be just as good if running a glock/SFA/or SAO.

When you say "better," can you elaborate on what you mean?

Many to most of the shooters at the recent Production nationals were shooting DA/SA guns. A quick look at video of what Ben Stoeger, Matt Mink, Les Pepperoni, Jacob Heatherington, Trenton S, and others are doing with the DA presentation might be enlightening.

[breakingtime91]

When you say "better," can you elaborate on what you mean?

Many to most of the shooters at the recent Production nationals were shooting DA/SA guns. A quick look at video of what Ben Stoeger, Matt Mink, Les Pepperoni, Jacob Heatherington, Trenton S, and others are doing with the DA presentation might be enlightening.

Did you watch the video? Does Ernest Langdon still advocate this? I am sure they are all very good shooters.





especially Les (ps Les, since I gave you a compliment, how about I swing by and you slap a new pepperoni rear sight on my 92a1)

[Mr_White]

Fun thread, this thing is getting legs fast!

You do have me on the concealed thing, I have no idea what his capabilities are there or if he ever does it.

I used to be a lot more excited about whatever difference there may be. I've come to believe that if any of the very skilled shooters I've seen, using range or competition gear, cared to focus on their carry gear from concealment instead, they'd display great skill with that gear in short order too. I do not feel that I'm in a rightful position to be very dismissive of what I've seen them do with their unconcealed gear. Good skill stands on its own.

Yes that is why I asked that question. Your technique with your glock trigger is great with that trigger. I don't believe and I am sure someone will tell me why I am wrong, would be great with a DA trigger. I was under the impression that Ernest Langdons technique would be better for working a DA pull and yours would be just as good if running a glock/SFA/or SAO.

I would not disagree with that, and I think a lot of these details boil down to small differences in degree. I bet if you handed me a proper DA pistol and holster and gave me twenty dry draws and trigger presses to dial it in, I'd be getting on the trigger harder/heavier/earlier too. It would just come out almost on its own.

Maybe in contrast to that, I think GJM has some pretty interesting things to say about drawing in conjunction with various different triggers - especially heavier ones. (I think he still gets the trigger done at the end pretty successfully...)

Changing gears...

Presentation - there is a gaming version and a real life version. The "elevator" Langdon refers to in his video above is one I see gamers do often, usually preceded by a two handed draw (rip and grip). For anyone who carries a pistol concealed for anything other than gaming, there should be a retention position built into your draw, which means you have to bring it as far up as possible before presenting it. This also is important for hand to blade to gun type confrontations.

I think people who train to both draw to full extension, and separately to draw to a retention position, can observe the need for one or the other and apply the right one. The whole concept of self-defense pretty much hinges on being able recognize certain problems and apply appropriate solutions... Yes, we all know you don't want to have 5000 different draw techniques to choose from, but I don't believe that 'draw to retention vs. draw to full extension' is too far in that direction.