Pepper Spray Mk-3 sized Stream vs Cone?

[Elbowtko]

Hi,

I was hoping that the almighty Chuck Haggard could chime in with his vast experience with OC. I currently carry a sabre red spitfire on my keychain, but was thinking about adding and extra holstered pepper spray who those times when I want to carry a bit more (such as a hike, running, venturing in not so friendly urban areas if I must).

I'm currently trying to decide between the Sabre crossfire stream and the Sabre red DPS cone or Fox Mean green cone in the Mk-3 size. I plan on carrying this on the strong side of my hip with a omega holster pepper spray kydex holster. http://www.omegaholsters.com/15-Diam...ders-PSH01.htm

From what I read and please correct me if I am wrong (its why i'm asking for advice and opinions)

Pros for cone:
Far more effective compared to that of streams because of the respiratory effects,
Likelihood of effectiveness vs those wearing glasses
Increase in chances of actually hitting the eyes of the attacker when he is charging at you and defending against the spray.
I believe I read also that cones are also more effective against animals (there are no bear sprays for example that come in streams) and again are easier to hit the eyes.
In addition, cones have the ability to create an area of denial in which an attacker is less likely to want to pass through, and also may or may not be better for crowd control if there are multiple attackers buying you time.

Cons for cone:
Decreased range
Windy conditions may effect its range and also cause blowback
Fewer shots compared to that of stream of equal canister size.

Pros for stream:
Is the only form that comes in crossfire technology, meaning it could be sprayed with the can in any direction including downwards, upside down, which could be important especially if you are spraying against an attack who is attempting to cover and you want to shoot upwards from the bottom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzwTbC9sOQc
longer range
less affected by wind
for LEO or in more crowded areas you are less likely to significantly hit unintended targets.
More shots per same size canister

Cons for stream:
Narrow shot, if you don't get the eyes or if the attacker blocks the spray can be significantly less effective compared to cone which may still effect respiratory ( can anyone confirm this to be true? )
Less effective vs that of a person wearing glasses/sunglasses ( again can anyone also confirm this? ) I'm assuming you need to aim for the eyebrows to wait for the stream to drip down towards the attackers eyes.
Less respiratory effects.
MORE blowback at close range compared to that of a cone, imagine hitting a target close up with a stream and having it splatter back at you, where as a cone the mist is more likely to be absorbed by the attacker rather than deflected. (can anyone confirm this to be true? )

[Chuck Haggard]

Hi,

I was hoping that the retired, fat, broken Chuck Haggard could chime in with his vast experience with OC. I currently carry a sabre red spitfire on my keychain, but was thinking about adding and extra holstered pepper spray who those times when I want to carry a bit more (such as a hike, running, venturing in not so friendly urban areas if I must).

I'm currently trying to decide between the Sabre crossfire stream and the Sabre red DPS cone or Fox Mean green cone in the Mk-3 size. I plan on carrying this on the strong side of my hip with a omega holster pepper spray kydex holster. http://www.omegaholsters.com/15-Diam...ders-PSH01.htm

From what I read and please correct me if I am wrong (its why i'm asking for advice and opinions)

Pros for cone:
Far more effective compared to that of streams because of the respiratory effects, Somewhat, yes, gets into the lungs with a quickness
Likelihood of effectiveness vs those wearing glasses
Increase in chances of actually hitting the eyes of the attacker when he is charging at you and defending against the spray. Much easier to hit with at close range, and the cone tends to engulf the entire face/head area, streamers require one to be more precise with the spray
I believe I read also that cones are also more effective against animals (there are no bear sprays for example that come in streams) and again are easier to hit the eyes.
In addition, cones have the ability to create an area of denial in which an attacker is less likely to want to pass through, and also may or may not be better for crowd control if there are multiple attackers buying you time. The fog/overspray can be used in some circumstances, or be used when upwind to effect people. I've broken up quite a few bar fights with this tactic

Cons for cone:
Decreased range
Windy conditions may effect its range and also cause blowback Very much so
Fewer shots compared to that of stream of equal canister size. Not really, no

Pros for stream:
Is the only form that comes in crossfire technology, meaning it could be sprayed with the can in any direction including downwards, upside down, which could be important especially if you are spraying against an attack who is attempting to cover and you want to shoot upwards from the bottom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzwTbC9sOQc
longer range More than double the range, but after about ten feet that's difficult to use effectively
less affected by wind Yes, by quite a bit
for LEO or in more crowded areas you are less likely to significantly hit unintended targets. Yes
More shots per same size canister

Cons for stream:
Narrow shot, if you don't get the eyes or if the attacker blocks the spray can be significantly less effective compared to cone which may still effect respiratory ( can anyone confirm this to be true? )Yes, it's a common failure point when using OC spray
Less effective vs that of a person wearing glasses/sunglasses ( again can anyone also confirm this? ) I'm assuming you need to aim for the eyebrows to wait for the stream to drip down towards the attackers eyes. Yes, but spraying the face and hitting the cheeks and eyebrows often gets splash into the eyes
Less respiratory effects.Yes
MORE blowback at close range compared to that of a cone, imagine hitting a target close up with a stream and having it splatter back at you, where as a cone the mist is more likely to be absorbed by the attacker rather than deflected. (can anyone confirm this to be true? )Maybe a bit, but not really a worry

FIFY,..... and hopefully answered some questions in a helpful manner


My old agency ended up with this model; https://www.sabrered.com/pepper-spra...8-oz-cone-mk-2

using the "Red" 1.33% MCC formula. We found it to be very effective. The first time I was hit with the Red in T&E/training I noted it was noticably hotter than other OC sprays I had been hit with in the past, and I've been hit with a LOT of OC over the years.

The MK3 size would be the same with a few extra shots on board.

[Elbowtko]

FIFY,..... and hopefully answered some questions in a helpful manner


My old agency ended up with this model; https://www.sabrered.com/pepper-spra...8-oz-cone-mk-2

using the "Red" 1.33% MCC formula. We found it to be very effective. The first time I was hit with the Red in T&E/training I noted it was noticably hotter than other OC sprays I had been hit with in the past, and I've been hit with a LOT of OC over the years.

The MK3 size would be the same with a few extra shots on board.

Thank you very much for your response Chuck, it has been very informative, The exact can that you recommended in mk-3 size cone is what I was considering on getting.

While it would be nice to have many canisters of spray on me at a time. I am limited in how much I would like to carry.

Which do you find more versatile?

Which one type do you prefer yourself? Again I understand they are different tools for perhaps even different people.

Which of the two would you recommend for me based on the following:
-Likely to be used outside during a hike or run
-possible encounter with 4 legged and 2 legged creatures
-Limited direct experience with firing OC canisters though competent with other projectiles like pistol marksmanship, I will purchase an inert canister for practice to familiarize myself however, I will not have resources to practice weekly or monthly.
-Am a grappling and striking instructor
-Concerned with ability to leverage vs multiple attackers
-Live in a state which does not believe in the right to carry a concealed firearm thus this will be my primary and ONLY ranged deterrent

Thank you again Mr. Chuck Haggard. You have a lot of OC experience, have you ever considered running pepperspray Q&A on pistol forum, I'm sure plenty of people have questions and would be a great way to promote your work.

[jnc36rcpd]

Not Chuck and nowhere near his experience in a much larger agency with a higher OPTEMPO, but I will endorse Sabre Red and cone-shaped sprays for most law enforcement and citizen self-defense scenarios. While one can never predict the future. the odds are greater that you will be in a close quarters scenario, possibly with multiple threats, and time will be of the essence. A cone-shaped spray is much more likely a first shot hit (and possibly a first shot stop) than a streamer. I did work with a LEO who went to another department where a streamer may have been a better option (single officer confrontations with multiple suspects and back-up at a distance). Nonetheless, I think he would have been better off carrying both a streamer and a cone. I realize, however, this is probably not realistic for most officers and certainly not most citizens.

[Elbowtko]

Not Chuck and nowhere near his experience in a much larger agency with a higher OPTEMPO, but I will endorse Sabre Red and cone-shaped sprays for most law enforcement and citizen self-defense scenarios. While one can never predict the future. the odds are greater that you will be in a close quarters scenario, possibly with multiple threats, and time will be of the essence. A cone-shaped spray is much more likely a first shot hit (and possibly a first shot stop) than a streamer. I did work with a LEO who went to another department where a streamer may have been a better option (single officer confrontations with multiple suspects and back-up at a distance). Nonetheless, I think he would have been better off carrying both a streamer and a cone. I realize, however, this is probably not realistic for most officers and certainly not most citizens.

Thank for your reply, It was interesting when talking about stream vs cone when I ran into video comparing the effects of stream vs cone on live subjects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX1dNwUwxUk

I was more surprised at the intensity of the effect with the blowback, first it was even the sprayer, but just being next to the sprayer could cause someone to be unable to close their eyes. On the other hand the effectiveness of the cone can't be overstated, there was significantly more coughing compared to the stream and seem to have a much faster effect.