P.E. Kelly's offhand rifle technique applied to pistols

[P.E. Kelley]

Provided a good trigger press and sight alignment all shots will fall within your wobble zone.

For the better part of 2 years I never let a single shot out of the 3.36" 10 ring during the 25 yard
"Timed" and "Rapid" matches. That meant I had a 10 ring wobble that I capitalized on with the "Honest Trigger"
that I previously and quality sight alignment. And that was all done with one hand.

[GJM]

I feel like this is a far more practical approach to shooting at the 25 yard line than the "stop, aim, jerk" method. Realistically, I'm moving around in a match, my blood is pumping, complete and total stillness on the target has probably gone out of the window...hell it goes out of the window after I have a strong cup of coffee...And honestly, trigger control is king, though at 25 yards, I'm guessing the proper sight alignment is an important part.

I'll need to try this sometime soon.

Here is another thought. The point at a match is to collect the most points in the least amount of time, and an A at 3 yards is worth the same as an A at 25 yards. That is why Robbie says to shoot the close targets slow, and the far targets fast.

[frozentundra]

I find this thread really interesting. For whatever reason, accuracy at 25 yds is kind of an aspirational hobby of mine.

I have a Wobble question: if you were to somehow able to get a perfect trigger press, and perfect sight picture, how big would your groups translate to due to wobble alone, in your case?

So, for instance, a USPSA metric target head zone is 15 cm x 15 cm. A B-8 repair center is something like 5 3/16" for the black part of the bull, at least for my printouts.

In other words, can one generally keep inside a A zone/B-8 bullseye just by managing trigger press and sight alignment?

Perhaps stick a cheap laser on your gun and try it out against a dark backstop? You could even record the dot against a measured target with a cell phone sitting up close. I've always wanted to try this, but never remember to buy one.

I also think a cheapo laser pointer mounted to a blue gun would be a great training aid for teaching new shooter muzzle discipline. Or perhaps could be used as a remedial tool to allow poor gun handlers to more easily "get it".

I really need to buy one and try this just to quantify my longstanding curiosity about my wobble zone if nothing else.

[GLB]

The "accept the wobble" technique actually works similar to what P.E. Kelly is doing with movement and timing. He is coming to the target from a controlled direction (7 o'clock) and moving to the target timiming the shot. The wobble is movement within the target area and breaking the shot inside that wobble zone. At 25 yards with a handgun the wobble is accepted (Smaller the better) with steady pressure on the trigger. However at distance say Scoped Rifle at 200 yards the wobble may be (depending the size of target) out side of the target area and one would time the shot as it is coming In to the target.

[Luke]

Here is another thought. The point at a match is to collect the most points in the least amount of time, and an A at 3 yards is worth the same as an A at 25 yards. That is why Robbie says to shoot the close targets slow, and the far targets fast.

I don't understand

[RJ]

Provided a good trigger press and sight alignment all shots will fall within your wobble zone.

For the better part of 2 years I never let a single shot out of the 3.36" 10 ring during the 25 yard
"Timed" and "Rapid" matches. That meant I had a 10 ring wobble that I capitalized on with the "Honest Trigger"
that I previously and quality sight alignment. And that was all done with one hand.

Cool.

So my takeaway as a new shooter, is to focus more on trigger press straight back and decent sight alignment, and less on worrying about placing the middle top of the front sight blade steadily on the center of the bull?

[scw2]

Cool.

So my takeaway as a new shooter, is to focus more on trigger press straight back and decent sight alignment, and less on worrying about placing the middle top of the front sight blade steadily on the center of the bull?

Imagine two scenarios to duplicate the 3.36" results Mr Kelley has been doing.

In the first scenario, you're able to have a perfect alignment and trigger press, but wobble within a 1.68" radius cylinder. That's pretty substantial wobble when you think about it, but you'd turn out good results on the target.

Now, imagine in the 2nd scenario you have zero wobble, but somehow when you shoot the alignment is off due to improper trigger press or sight alignment. To match those results, your angle has to stay within 0.107 degrees or so. To convert that into inches of misalignment of say, the tops of the front and rear sight, assuming a 5 inch barrel, that's 0.009333" only.

[scw2]

I don't understand

Wouldn't it be context dependent on the overall stage, and what is relatively more important (pts or time)?

[Mr_White]

The "accept the wobble" technique actually works similar to what P.E. Kelly is doing with movement and timing. He is coming to the target from a controlled direction (7 o'clock) and moving to the target timiming the shot. The wobble is movement within the target area and breaking the shot inside that wobble zone. At 25 yards with a handgun the wobble is accepted (Smaller the better) with steady pressure on the trigger. However at distance say Scoped Rifle at 200 yards the wobble may be (depending the size of target) out side of the target area and one would time the shot as it is coming In to the target.

Nice post GLB, that is largely how I think of it too.

I find this thread really interesting. For whatever reason, accuracy at 25 yds is kind of an aspirational hobby of mine.

I have a Wobble question: if you were to somehow able to get a perfect trigger press, and perfect sight picture, how big would your groups translate to due to wobble alone, in your case?

So, for instance, a USPSA metric target head zone is 15 cm x 15 cm. A B-8 repair center is something like 5 3/16" for the black part of the bull, at least for my printouts.

In other words, can one generally keep inside a A zone/B-8 bullseye just by managing trigger press and sight alignment?

I haven't measured these closely, but I do a demo in class where I use a laser to isolate and illustrate wobble zone only. I basically keep the laser on a 3/4" spot at something like ten yards and I don't think I'm special. I think my wobble zone at 25 yards is something like a couple of inches, based on my recollection of the few times I've tried to hold a laser on a target spot at 25 yards. I think most people are easily going to be able to hold within a B-8 bullseye at 25 yards.

There may be a subtle difference between iron sights and a laser though because a laser or dot usually shows the shooter their wobble zone much more clearly than irons.

Cool.

So my takeaway as a new shooter, is to focus more on trigger press straight back and decent sight alignment, and less on worrying about placing the middle top of the front sight blade steadily on the center of the bull?

That may work for some people but I don't believe it's universal - or even the same for one person all the time.

IMHO, this thread is mostly about subtleties of human self-management in shooting.

Rich, I think a more factually correct way to phrase your post is to replace the idea of 'focus/worrying' with 'importance/severe effect'. I definitely think the trigger press has a greater effect on the quality of one's shooting than does the sight picture. But that's different than what you should mentally focus on. A lot of people do well 'concentrating' on a great trigger press. A lot of other people goad themselves into anticipating a shot by 'concentrating' on the trigger press and thus where they are in the trigger press, and would do better to get their mind on the sight picture. It varies by person, and it can vary even within a single person at different times and in different circumstances.

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Like GLB kind of mentioned, there is a whole other dimension when the wobble zone exceeds the size of the target but you still want to shoot it anyway. Then you have to break the shot 'now', cleanly enough, during the limited portion of the wobble zone when the gun is on target instead of off it. This is something that has come up for me a lot in shooting the swinging bowling pins on the run at a challenging enough distance that my wobble zone doesn't allow the gun to be continuously in alignment with the target. Then the trigger presses have to be timed correctly.

[RJ]

Lot to think on in this thread.

I'm going to ponder a few things, might have some more questions. Gabe, if I ever get to Clackamas again, I'd like a 2.0 that goes into this in greater depth.

Definitely going to try and work some of these concepts into my next 25 yd range session. Meanwhile, going back to lurk mode.

Great thread.