Scout rifle, circa 2016

[secondstoryguy]

Jim Brockman is now making a lightweight, controlled feed bolt, with a folding stock, based on a Kimber action. Will see if I can get a picture.

Don't you dare show me a picture. I'm buying a new house in a month and my significant other would skin me alive if I even thought about buying any toys.

Rob: I agree about the forward mounted scope, it's no longer relevant with modern optics and reliable magazine ready bottom metal. I still use the term "scout" but your probably right that what we are talking about is more aptly termed "practical bolt guns". IMHO a practical rifle has all the specs of Coopers scout rifle save the optic and its mounting position.

[Lester Polfus]

I certainly agree about the forward mounted optic. I think it was an idea that made total sense at the time, that has now been eclipsed by modern advances.

How do we feel about back up irons on the practical rifle? I've got them on mine, but I really question the need. I've been using the same rifle and Leupold scope since 2002 and despite bouncing in a rack over hundreds of miles of bad roads and literally tumbling down the mountain with me on a couple of occasions, I've never lost zero much less had it break.

[spinmove_]

This looks mildly interesting if it (a) wasn't a mossberg and (b) was controlled-feed instead of push and (c) that top rail is removable for normal-people mounts
http://www.mossberg.com/product/mvp-scout-rifle-27778/

Stupid bolt-action newbie here, so please bear with me, but...

a.) What's wrong with Mossberg?
b.) Why is that a desirable thing (controlled-feed, that is)?
c.) Are we sure the top rail isn't removable? If it was, sure you would lose the rear ghost ring, but there's gotta be an after-market solution you could mount in it's place, right?

[secondstoryguy]

I've had a couple of scopes break (one was an older S&B that fogged out inside during sub zero temps) although I admit that it rarely if ever happens. I still like to use irons during inclement weather and as a close range option in certain circumstances. I've been playing with the idea of ditching them on my next build in favor of a pocket carried RDS.

[rob_s]

Stupid bolt-action newbie here, so please bear with me, but...

a.) What's wrong with Mossberg?
b.) Why is that a desirable thing (controlled-feed, that is)?
c.) Are we sure the top rail isn't removable? If it was, sure you would lose the rear ghost ring, but there's gotta be an after-market solution you could mount in it's place, right?

(A) never was very confidence-instilling to me. Nothing "wrong", but seems below even Savage in my mind.
(B) controlled-feed is... controlled. push feed is relying on gravity, luck, chance, and a steady gun.
(C) I'm not sure it isn't. Good point re: the ghost ring.

How do we feel about back up irons on the practical rifle? I've got them on mine, but I really question the need. I've been using the same rifle and Leupold scope since 2002 and despite bouncing in a rack over hundreds of miles of bad roads and literally tumbling down the mountain with me on a couple of occasions, I've never lost zero much less had it break.

I want irons on a bolt gun. Not critical, but I could imagine pulling the scope off and using irons, or just using the irons for a time before choosing a scope.

[Jared]

I actually just impulse bought a Ruger American Ranch in 223 the other day. I did it because it was a good compact size and relatively inexpensive. Coupled with the fact that I already had a scope and rings laying around, and adding in the low price and I said why not.

I haven't got everything put together and that's probably gonna be a project for when the weather gets cooler anyway, but for what I intend to do with it (some target shooting and perhaps some varmint/coyote control) I think it'll be almost ideal.

In truth, it reminds me of the Remington Mohawk 600 in 222 (not a typo, that rifle was a triple deuce) that I had almost ten years ago that I foolishly over-scoped (a 4.5-14 was great for the bench, but lousy for a light handy field rifle) and sadly let go.

[SMD]

Stupid bolt-action newbie here, so please bear with me, but...


b.) Why is that a desirable thing (controlled-feed, that is)?

Wayne van Zwoll does a decent job of summarizing:

The bottom rim of the 98 Mauser's bolt face is milled flush with the center of the face so the case head can ride up in to the extractor claw. This permits controlled round feed. Important to infantrymen, early snaring of the case head precluded double loading - the inadvertent stripping of another round from the magazine after the bolt had run one into the chamber. This would, naturally, cause a jam. Controlling feed from the initial travel of the bolt forward also prevents spilling the cartridge if you cycle the action with the rifle tipped steeply to the side.

Gun Digest Shooter's Guide to Rifles
Wayne van Zwoll
2012 F+W Media

The only problem is that many rifles with CRF features, i.e. a Mauser-style claw extractor, are still not timed correctly or exhibit a flaw in the magazine or feed lip geometry and aren't CRF in practice. My own sample size includes 2 CZ 550s, a pre-64 Model 70, a BACO Model 70, a handful of Ruger MKII/Hawkeyes, and one Swedish Mauser. Of the bunch, only the 96 Swede exhibited true controlled round feeding as Herr Mauser intended.

I'm coming to think CRF is an overrated and misunderstood virtue. But, regardless of the feed cycle, Mauser-style extractors still do a wonderful job of removing fired cases from the chamber. Perhaps more importantly, many of the CRF designs also have a standing ejector which jettison spent cases with authority.

[GJM]

I spoke to Jim Brockman this morning. Of all we discussed, his favorites are:

1) in the micro Scout category, the CZ .223. Prefers the .223 to 7.62x39, as it shoots .223 and 5.56, where there is an issue with the 7.62x39 being set up for CIP .311 ammo instead of SAAMI .308, which is most of the premium loads. With the youth model, add perhaps an Aimpoint and simple sling and done.

2) in .308, he likes the Tikka CTR. He thought you might take as much as .75 pound off by cutting the heavier profile 20 inch barrel back to 16 inches, and fluting. Thinks the Tikka is top of the heap at the $1,000 and less price point. Looking forward to a version of the Canadian Ranger Sako CTR coming.

3) I also confirmed he is still taking in even smaller jobs (with reasonable turn around) on doing partial custom packages, like on the CTR or equivalent.

[secondstoryguy]

Controlled feed guns pick the round up and control it from the time it releases from the magazine till the time it ejects from the rifle which makes them less position sensitive that a push feed(the round doesn't just flop around in the receiver while being chambered) and also prevents double feeds. The extractor on CF rifles also grip a big percentage of the rim of cartridge helping extract dirty/stuck cases from the chamber.

The safety is also one of the reasons I like the Win 70 action for fieldwork. On safe it locks the bolt down and this is huge when moving through the brush and carrying the rifle slung(I once drew down on a large elk with a non-locking bolt rifle only to find the receiver open and full of snow). Also the ability to put the safety in the middle "unload" position allows me to keep the weapon on safe to clear it which is something other rifles cannot do.

Some will say that all the military uses pushfeeds in combat on their sniper rifles. I say that's a much different application than a hunting or practical rifle as precision rifles are almost always fired from a static position and not offhand. If you look back in history almost all popular bolt action battle rifles were controlled feed.

[Xrslug]

If 50-state legality and perhaps a "lower profile" are the primary issues pushing the AR platform out of contention then I think this platform deserves a look:
http://www.aresdefense.com/?page_id=729
Available as a lower only and laminate stocks and forearms are available as well so it looks even more like a "traditional" rifle. Fits any AR upper, including alternate calibers. I've just started looking into this given CA's newly passed "assault weapon" laws. Reviews seem favorable. New version has a much improved trigger. Bolt hold open is available. Iron sights are available. Etc. Seems like it could be a viable option -- I've seen them set up with 24" accurized uppers and as SBR's.