Scout rifle, circa 2016

[Colt191145lover]

This looks like a very well thought out update:

https://www.steyr-arms.com/en/hunting-rifles/scout-ii/

Pretty disappointing , a lot of missed opportunities. The PIC rail on top was the smartest move.

[1911nerd]

While it is not for everyone, the Steyr Scout really is the rifle to get if you are interested in the Scout Rifle concept. For those interested, HIGHLY recommended.

The ejection port and single loading.... not going to disagree too much, yet I will a little. It can be done and done good enough with practice and training. But given single loading while holding a full magazine in reserve is a core concept of the Scout Rifle, yes the ejection port could have/should be more accommodating.

The stock takes some getting used to, but once I did, love it. It is also adjustable, which for Scout Rifles should be on the short side.

Recoil/kick... How this is perceived is subjective, and we are all built a bit different, so I never look down on someone who doesn't find 308 comfortable to shoot. But, if you are toying with the thought of getting a light rifle such as the Steyr Scout (and it barely counts as a light rifle), light rifles do expose where we have room to improve in our rifle shooting fundamentals.

When I got mine and shot it for the first time IT HURT. It hurt because I had allowed heavier rifles with large recoil pads to mask where I had room to improve in my skills. Minimal work on my fundamentals and now I can shoot 10 round strings without pain or discomfort. 100 to 200 rounds over the course of a couple hours, working on skills, not a problem. Light rifles expose where we need to improve.

The scout scope. Contrary to claims otherwise, it is not outdated/obsolete in concept. However, it has always been the weak link in the execution of any implementation of the Scout Rifle concept. There has never, ever been a proper, well designed, well thought out, and well manufactured scout scope. Never. The closest we ever got to anything approaching ideal was the now discontinued Leupold vx-r scout 1.5-5x33. The concepts behind it are not well understood, thus there is little market, since there is little market and sales are low, there is no incentive to put R&D money into a well-executed scout scope. So, we end up with a circular problem...a perception the scope concept sucks/outdated because it has been poorly executed to date, thus sales are not where they need to be to invest in R&D, which leads to the continued perception it sucks or is outdated...which leads to low sales. you get the idea.

I think reasonable people can differ.

For the scope: my point of comparison is what I can actually buy side by side. Low light performance on the scout scope was demonstrably worse and given hunting hours I care about that.

Regarding kick I agree it can be subjective. I have other similar or even lighter weight 308s and similar weight 300 win mags and don’t have a problem with them. I spent several days on the line with Randy Cain and he could not diagnose that I was doing something wrong but I definitely had a bruise that extended well into my pectoral muscle.

So my take is it is a niche product and at least for me there are better options.

Scout concept or no, the price performance of COTS rifles today rivals custom and high end semi custom of twenty years ago.

[zeleny]

Current production .308 Winchester Unique Alpine AG Kodiak Scout JPR-1 rifle, AICS magazine system, controlled-feed bolt, controlled ejection and three-position safety.

[okie john]

For the scope: my point of comparison is what I can actually buy side by side. Low light performance on the scout scope was demonstrably worse and given hunting hours I care about that.

Low-light performance and low power were the stumbling blocks that I found with the Scout concept.

For me, the straw that broke the camel's back came on a misty, gloomy dawn in the Pacific Northwest. I had found a good blacktail buck about 200 yards away, surrounded by no-shoots. Better blacktail hunters than me will tell you that a blacktail doe is about as wary as a whitetail buck, a blacktail buck is about as wary as a whitetail trophy buck, and blacktail trophy bucks are off the scale. To add to the magnitude of this event, he was on public land.

I could see him with 8x binos but I couldn't pick him out of the group with my 2.75x Scout scope. I'm certain that I could have made the shot with the Nightforce SHV 3-10 that I'm running these days, but I had to let him go.

A short, light rifle is a thing of beauty but you need to get several hundred rounds through it on drills that mimic the conditions where you'll use it to understand why it deserves more than a fixed sub-4x scope can provide.


Okie John

[308Rifle]

I think reasonable people can differ.

Absolutely. Not only differ in basic views/thoughts but have those views/thoughts based on equally valid but different experiences. I have had a completely different experience than you, leading to a different opinion. The root of my disagreement is in the tone of your and similar opinions. They carry a definitive tone, when in reality is was your experience only. Others may have a completely different experience.

For the scope: my point of comparison is what I can actually buy side by side. Low light performance on the scout scope was demonstrably worse and given hunting hours I care about that.

My point of disagreement with people over the scout scope is mostly over drawing conclusions based on the piss poor examples from which to draw conclusions from, leading to a conflating poor quality and implementation with the concepts behind the scope. Leupold with the Vx-R scout scope seems to have addressed many of the observed shortcomings people complained about. So that raised the question, in my mind at least...were the complaints valid to the concept or just valid to the piss poor examples we had to choose from?

Few people noticed the VX-R scout scope. I am glad I was able to get one. I almost missed out due to a snobby attitude towards weight. It is a superior scout scope to all others, no question. It addressed almost all the complaints, and even performs better than some LPVOs. Given no manufacture seems interested in trying to develop a scout scope that can deliver, I do agree that LPVOs are going to be the best choice for most people moving forward.

Regarding kick I agree it can be subjective. I have other similar or even lighter weight 308s and similar weight 300 win mags and don’t have a problem with them. I spent several days on the line with Randy Cain and he could not diagnose that I was doing something wrong but I definitely had a bruise that extended well into my pectoral muscle.

While I stand by my comments that light rifles expose areas we need to improve, it is equally true we all have different bodies. If you had Randy looking over your shoulder than in your case fundamentals were likely not the issue. But for many, many people it is. Not just for scout rifles specifically, but light rifles in general.

So my take is it is a niche product and at least for me there are better options.

They absolutely are a niche. Which is why many, many people get caught up in the excitement, then are disappointed in the reality. To get the most out of the scout rifle also requires understanding the thoughts behind it as well as having an interest in general purpose rifles. Which means accepting as correct/normal things that other areas of rifle shooting do not. Which is fine since the application for the Scout Rifle is going to be different than say PRS type shooting.

I personally think most people don't want a GP rifle. Cooper was a great writers and salesmen, and as such it is easy to get caught up in his excitement for the rifle and the imagery, he created around it. In reality people likely want/need a Practical Rifle, they just don't know it. While there is no official definition of a Practical Rifle, I believe there is a difference between the two ideas/rifles. I came to that conclusion following this very thread.

All actual Scout Rifles are GP rifles. But not all GP rifles are Scout Rifles. But they share the following, a design that is intended to do as many non-specialized tasks as possible. Jack of all trades, master of non. But given the state of our economy (not talking about it at anyone point in time, but averaged out over time) many, many people can afford more than one rifle. Even if not to the point they can afford 1 rifle per shooting need/interest/activity. Which is where the idea of "Practical Rifle" in my opinion comes it. It is a rifle biased at least 80% towards a specific activity and the rest leaves flexibility for some less common actives you like using a rifle for. I have seen people try and use "Practical Rifle" and GP/Scout Rifle inter changeably, but I think that is wrong. When you look at what people were actually describing for their rifle, the activities they were using a rifle for, the two are different concepts.

To borrow from Richard Mann... People who wake up and know they need a rifle for that day, but don't know why or for what, OR are interested in exploring that idea as a thought and field experiments are likely to be someone who will enjoy and get the most out of a GP rifle or Scout Rifle. On the other hand, if you wake up and say, "need to get ready for a PRS match", you are likely to not get much out of a Scout Rifle or even be interested in one and more likely to want/need/enjoy a very specialized rifle. Or if you wake up and say I am grabbing my rifle to go do X (which is something you do a lot of with your rifle) but may also do some Y and Z if there is time, you likely will get the most out of a "Practical Rifle" as it will be most practical for your X activity, but can still reasonably handle Y and X.

[308Rifle]

Low-light performance and low power were the stumbling blocks that I found with the Scout concept.

For me, the straw that broke the camel's back came on a misty, gloomy dawn in the Pacific Northwest. I had found a good blacktail buck about 200 yards away, surrounded by no-shoots. Better blacktail hunters than me will tell you that a blacktail doe is about as wary as a whitetail buck, a blacktail buck is about as wary as a whitetail trophy buck, and blacktail trophy bucks are off the scale. To add to the magnitude of this event, he was on public land.

I could see him with 8x binos but I couldn't pick him out of the group with my 2.75x Scout scope. I'm certain that I could have made the shot with the Nightforce SHV 3-10 that I'm running these days, but I had to let him go.

A short, light rifle is a thing of beauty but you need to get several hundred rounds through it on drills that mimic the conditions where you'll use it to understand why it deserves more than a fixed sub-4x scope can provide.


Okie John

For me it was lack of focus adjustment on the Leupold 2.5 fixed. But again, are we running into issues with the concept as a sighting system? Or are these issues more an inditement on the implementations we had available to us?

Today it is hard to remember that scopes were much more fragile then than they are now. One way around that was fixed power scopes. And Cooper seems to have wanted to limit shots to what someone with 20/20 vision could do. Which meant he didn't see the need for a lot of magnification, if any.

Technically, nothing says you can't have something like the Nightforce on your Scout Rifle. Of course, the design and magnification do not facilitate what he called the snapshot, but he was up front the need for one was rare. If "you" care about trying to stay true to the goal of keeping weight down, then something like the Nightforce NX8 1-8x between weight and the 1x would likely be the better choice. But to each their own.

[Borderland]

Not exactly a scout rifle concept but I've tried to find a Tikka CTR in .223. I think they were only built for a short time. They seem to be available in .308 and other cartridges with a 20" barrel. That would be my choice with a 4X optic.

I have a Howa 1500 HB and it shoots 1 MOA. Those are good bolt rifles for cheap.

[308Rifle]

Not exactly a scout rifle concept but I've tried to find a Tikka CTR in .223. I think they were only built for a short time. They seem to be available in .308 and other cartridges with a 20" barrel. That would be my choice with a 4X optic.

I have a Howa 1500 HB and it shoots 1 MOA. Those are good bolt rifles for cheap.

The 223 CTR is still in their catalog, and EuroOptics has a left hand model in stock. They do not seem to be the most common model produced.

[okie john]

For me it was lack of focus adjustment on the Leupold 2.5 fixed. But again, are we running into issues with the concept as a sighting system? Or are these issues more an inditement on the implementations we had available to us?

Today it is hard to remember that scopes were much more fragile then than they are now. One way around that was fixed power scopes. And Cooper seems to have wanted to limit shots to what someone with 20/20 vision could do. Which meant he didn't see the need for a lot of magnification, if any.

Technically, nothing says you can't have something like the Nightforce on your Scout Rifle. Of course, the design and magnification do not facilitate what he called the snapshot, but he was up front the need for one was rare. If "you" care about trying to stay true to the goal of keeping weight down, then something like the Nightforce NX8 1-8x between weight and the 1x would likely be the better choice. But to each their own.

I agree that our tools were not as good then, but even a superb 2.75x scope might not have been enough to let me take that buck.

I also agree about Cooper wanting to force things. I paid too much attention to him in the 80s and 90s but over time I realized he was trying to insist that certain things were black and white when the truth was more nuanced. The letters that I exchanged him about the Scout and rifles in general only reminded me of this.

I also wrote to Finn Aagaard. He reminded me that while Cooper publicly championed the “true” Scout, the one he had built for his daughter was a 30-06 and about half a pound overweight. He also told me that the winner of each class shoot-off usually used a sporter with the scope in the conventional position. So there’s that…

When I had a Scout, I spent a lot of time on exercises like Snaps, Rifle Bounce, and Rifle 10. Afterwards, I got a pre-64 Model 70 in 308 in a Pacific Research stock with a 4x Leupold. My scores were much the same with both rifles, and I killed blacktails with the Winchester like was a death ray. Going through 500 rounds of FMJ ball each summer getting ready for deer season and the fact that it fit me especially well were likely the reasons, not the optics.

This January, I shot Snaps for the first time in about a year. I used a Model 70 in 30-06 and the Nightforce SHV. I was shooting at 100 yards, and I averaged 2-3 seconds per shot with groups just over 10”--ragged but acceptable. Oddly enough, I started with the scope at 3x but shot better and more quickly with it at 5x. These may not be proper snap shots—I think you’re supposed to keep both eyes open—but if not, then they’re close.

This July, I shot Snaps for the first time since then. I used a Remington 700 Youth model in 308 with a 4-5 pound trigger and 4x Leupold, and a 22” Remington 700 in a Bell & Carlson stock with a 1-4 Trijicon Credo and a 2-pound trigger. Neither makes weight. Groups with both were acceptable and about the same size, but the Credo was hopeless at 1x so I cranked it up to 4x. At 25 yards, I averaged 1.52 seconds with the Youth model and 1.86 with the 22” rifle.

Again, these may not be proper snap shots, but I suspect that they’re close. Even from the grave, the Colonel may be trying to force us to shoot Snaps his way.


Okie John

[Rex G]

Current production .308 Winchester Unique Alpine AG Kodiak Scout JPR-1 rifle, AICS magazine system, controlled-feed bolt, controlled ejection and three-position safety.

Interesting! Thanks for posting this.