Scout rifle, circa 2016

[rob_s]

The AR in 5.56 does a lot, for sure. And I don't even currently own a bolt gun and won't if I can't get one to match my specs.

For me, it would be an inexpensive way to get into a bigger caliber for hunting and other purposes, and something I can leave in the car (minus optic, hence my iron sight requirement) that wouldn't impact me financially and which would make me morally feel a little less bad (letting a bolt-action into the hands of a turd rather than an evil baby killing AR).

I *don't* need or want a precision bolt action. AR would do just as good IMO. I *don't* want a $4k+ Brockman custom (well, I do, but not enough to spend). At that cost I'd just take the AR.

[Rex G]

Left left-eye-dominance has done much to keep me from impulse-buying bolt rifles, and I now have only one, with a left-hand action. My only other two bolt rifles, with right-hand actions, went away long ago. For years, I thought my “someday-“ custom scout might be a lever scout, but, an AR-based light-weight rifle, perhaps with a bore larger than .223/5.56, might be a best choice, if I can ever get over the “dingus down” factor, which I drilled into my brain when using TDA pistols in the Nineties. I was a latecomer to the AR15 platform, not even considering an AR15* until 2002, when I first had the prospect of carrying a patrol rifle, and that meant an AR15 or Mini-14, with the soonest-available cert classes being for those attending with an AR15.

Col. Cooper’s “Don’t get caught with your dingus down” applied to the safety levers of TDA pistols, such as the Beretta 92/M9 and most of the various First-through-Third-Generation S&W models. Having already been conditioned to the 1911/BHP-style safety, my personal mantra, to cover all safety levers, became “align safety lever with the enemy.” Well, unless one has a select-fire AR15, it is ready to fire when the Dingus is Down, and on-safe when the lever is aligned with the enemy. True, one sweeps the safety off, in the same operational direction as off-safe-ing a 1911/BHP, but the final “fire” position is when the lever is oriented vertically, and the AR15 is on-safe when the lever is aligned with the enemy, and no amount of training seems to totally remove that cognitive dissonance.

Interestingly, I solved the cognitive dissonance problem, to a large degree, by using a single-side safety, rather than ambi, so that my left thumb would not physically encounter the “dingus-down.” (I bump the safety lever to off-safe with my left index finger’s base knuckle, as I first saw being recommended by Kyle Lamb.)

As I aged-out of the PD’s athletic, timed, fast-paced patrol rifle qual, the AR15’s defensive importance, to me, waned. (Bad knees, not over-weight.) Recently, I took up the the AR15 again, in early 2018, and, well, found that some level of the cognitive dissonance had returned. (I have a BCM Lightweight Middy, and two complete lowers.) Sigh. I will have some work to do, or, remain a lever-rifle-man.

*As I became old enough to be aware of military rifles, I was influenced by vets who done tours in Vietnam, some of them close relatives, none of whom had a high opinion of the M-16.

[JHC]

The AR in 5.56 does a lot, for sure. And I don't even currently own a bolt gun and won't if I can't get one to match my specs.

For me, it would be an inexpensive way to get into a bigger caliber for hunting and other purposes, and something I can leave in the car (minus optic, hence my iron sight requirement) that wouldn't impact me financially and which would make me morally feel a little less bad (letting a bolt-action into the hands of a turd rather than an evil baby killing AR).

I *don't* need or want a precision bolt action. AR would do just as good IMO. I *don't* want a $4k+ Brockman custom (well, I do, but not enough to spend). At that cost I'd just take the AR.

I much prefer bolt actions with irons no matter how rudimentary. Ruger should option a Ranch Rifle that way.

[ASH556]

I keep liking this thread as it progresses. From a bolt gun perspective, I've tried everything from custom 16" 700 builds to full-on 26" precision bolt guns with varying degrees of optics. The capacity is always the hangup for me on them. DBM's seem to have progressed drastically in the last 5 or so years since Magpul-produced .308 mags became a thing. Even so, it ruins the handling/slinging of the rifle IMHO.

To me, barring the use of an AR (legal, perception, or whatever reason), the next best option is a levergun. The tubular magazine keeps the capacity higher than a bolt gun but without the protrusions. Also, I like that you can top it off while keeping it ready to fire (like you would run a shotgun. I'm not sure what caliber would be ideal. It seems usually they want a rimmed cartridge. 30-30 isn't the end of the world, but something 25-caliber based on a 357 cartridge with Blackout-ish ballistics would be cool.

**ETA: Apparently that's already been done and it's called a 256 Win Mag. Created in the 60's, dumped in the 90's according to Wiki. Still, I think a levergun based on that or something similar could do a lot of good. (Get the velocity up higher than 357 mag and use a lighter bullet for flatter trajectory/better range, use a Gold-Dot Bullet).

[mtnbkr]

I keep liking this thread as it progresses. From a bolt gun perspective, I've tried everything from custom 16" 700 builds to full-on 26" precision bolt guns with varying degrees of optics. The capacity is always the hangup for me on them. DBM's seem to have progressed drastically in the last 5 or so years since Magpul-produced .308 mags became a thing. Even so, it ruins the handling/slinging of the rifle IMHO.

To me, barring the use of an AR (legal, perception, or whatever reason), the next best option is a levergun. The tubular magazine keeps the capacity higher than a bolt gun but without the protrusions. Also, I like that you can top it off while keeping it ready to fire (like you would run a shotgun. I'm not sure what caliber would be ideal. It seems usually they want a rimmed cartridge. 30-30 isn't the end of the world, but something 25-caliber based on a 357 cartridge with Blackout-ish ballistics would be cool.

**ETA: Apparently that's already been done and it's called a 256 Win Mag. Created in the 60's, dumped in the 90's according to Wiki. Still, I think a levergun based on that or something similar could do a lot of good. (Get the velocity up higher than 357 mag and use a lighter bullet for flatter trajectory/better range, use a Gold-Dot Bullet).

I've never seen a 7mm Waters levergun, but I think that would be nifty. It would be just a barrel change on a 30-30 levergun. I also looked into converting a 357mag levergun to 357max. Doable as far as I can tell, but nobody had done it yet (this was 10 years ago).

Chris

[okie john]

I keep liking this thread as it progresses. From a bolt gun perspective, I've tried everything from custom 16" 700 builds to full-on 26" precision bolt guns with varying degrees of optics. The capacity is always the hangup for me on them. DBM's seem to have progressed drastically in the last 5 or so years since Magpul-produced .308 mags became a thing. Even so, it ruins the handling/slinging of the rifle IMHO.

To me, barring the use of an AR (legal, perception, or whatever reason), the next best option is a levergun. The tubular magazine keeps the capacity higher than a bolt gun but without the protrusions. Also, I like that you can top it off while keeping it ready to fire (like you would run a shotgun. I'm not sure what caliber would be ideal. It seems usually they want a rimmed cartridge. 30-30 isn't the end of the world, but something 25-caliber based on a 357 cartridge with Blackout-ish ballistics would be cool.

**ETA: Apparently that's already been done and it's called a 256 Win Mag. Created in the 60's, dumped in the 90's according to Wiki. Still, I think a levergun based on that or something similar could do a lot of good. (Get the velocity up higher than 357 mag and use a lighter bullet for flatter trajectory/better range, use a Gold-Dot Bullet).

I've also been around the horn on this issue. Here's how it breaks down for me:

1. DBMs are fine if a) I'm carrying a dozen or more on my person AND b) the weapon is designed for rapid reloads, and c) I can get unlimited replacements from the unit supply room and pay for them with a mild ass-chewing. If I lose one for a bolt rifle, I'm in a world of hurt plus they get shockingly expensive once the rifle goes out of production--just ask anyone with a Winchester 88 or 100 or an HK SK-7. If I can't solve a lone rifleman's problem with five rounds of 308 or 30-06, then I need to move before the bad guys can adjust artillery onto my position.
2. Prone can be a problem with lever guns. So is shooting with a sling.
3. Lever guns are rarely stocked for use with a scope. At my age, that matters a lot.
4. Tube magazines don't work well with pointed bullets, and blunt bullets limit your reach, which is the whole point of having a long gun in the first place. If I'm going to tolerate the limitations of a tubular magazine, then I want a 12-gauge.
5. Wildcats and odd cartridges are nice on paper but the point of a general-purpose rifle is that you can find ammo almost anywhere. 30-30 fills that niche nicely, but lacks reach.

With all of that in mind, I'm back to a Model 70 Winchester in 30-06 or 308.


Okie John

[JHC]

I keep liking this thread as it progresses. From a bolt gun perspective, I've tried everything from custom 16" 700 builds to full-on 26" precision bolt guns with varying degrees of optics. The capacity is always the hangup for me on them. DBM's seem to have progressed drastically in the last 5 or so years since Magpul-produced .308 mags became a thing. Even so, it ruins the handling/slinging of the rifle IMHO.

To me, barring the use of an AR (legal, perception, or whatever reason), the next best option is a levergun. The tubular magazine keeps the capacity higher than a bolt gun but without the protrusions. Also, I like that you can top it off while keeping it ready to fire (like you would run a shotgun. I'm not sure what caliber would be ideal. It seems usually they want a rimmed cartridge. 30-30 isn't the end of the world, but something 25-caliber based on a 357 cartridge with Blackout-ish ballistics would be cool.

**ETA: Apparently that's already been done and it's called a 256 Win Mag. Created in the 60's, dumped in the 90's according to Wiki. Still, I think a levergun based on that or something similar could do a lot of good. (Get the velocity up higher than 357 mag and use a lighter bullet for flatter trajectory/better range, use a Gold-Dot Bullet).

.30-30 is pretty hard to beat. Unless the ranges go long it's an incredibly efficient killer of medium game. Penetrates like the dickens with nil meat loss. My .30-30 is what makes my new .44 so illogical. But . . . Wind River Lite.

[rob_s]

IThe capacity is always the hangup for me on them.

DBMs are fine if a) I'm carrying a dozen or more on my person AND b) the weapon is designed for rapid reloads, and c) I can get unlimited replacements from the unit supply room and pay for them with a mild ass-chewing. If I lose one for a bolt rifle, I'm in a world of hurt plus they get shockingly expensive once the rifle goes out of production--just ask anyone with a Winchester 88 or 100 or an HK SK-7. If I can't solve a lone rifleman's problem with five rounds of 308 or 30-06, then I need to move before the bad guys can adjust artillery onto my position.

yeah, to piggyback on John's reply, if you're worried about mag capacity and using a bolt gun, you're doing it wrong.

[ASH556]

yeah, to piggyback on John's reply, if you're worried about mag capacity and using a bolt gun, you're doing it wrong.

Isn’t the whole point of the scout rifle to do as good a job as possible of replicating the firepower of a battle rifle or carbine in sort of a do-all capacity? Something that looks more PC? Hence the scope mounted forward of the receiver for faster loading?

[mtnbkr]

yeah, to piggyback on John's reply, if you're worried about mag capacity and using a bolt gun, you're doing it wrong.

One of the use cases for my 308 is ground-stalking black bears in the mountains. One shot will probably do it, but since I'll be on the same operational plane as the bear, I'd rather have a few more shots on board. If I go through all 9, a fast reload won't make much difference.

Chris