Picture of New FBI G19 M on GT.

[Dagga Boy]

nyeti, what's your preferred way to verify the load?

With the VP9.....I roll my primary hand over the back of the pistol like the one Tam posted with the 1911 and can do this one handed and physically confirm with my pinkie. I prefer to additionally control the front of the pistol with the support hand from underneath using the front cocking serrations. This gives me a ton of control of the pistol, the support hand allows an extra layer of control and muzzle control, and nothing is near a trigger. Different people, different guns and different situations may require a different procedure. This is an administrative technique that many try to place in a tactical use.

This is one place I very much like the Pat Macnamarra "safety" rule of "Know the status of your weapon". Anyone who follows us knows we teach the four basic safety rules as two "Mindset" rules (1&4) and two operational rules (#2&3). Pat's take fits as an additional operational rule that I really like in that context. This is a means to confirm that operational rule, and it should be mastered to perform safely and you may need to adapt for different situations or guns. I will admit to a horrible, very long term embedded habit of mine to pinch check 1911's. If I was carrying one operationally or regularly again, it is something I would work hard to fix. Usually it is watching tv with an unloaded one.
Which leads to when I use the loaded chamber verification a ton....during dry practice. I check often. If the pistol leaves my hand, it gets checked everytime I start again.

[joshs]

My biggest problem is this: It is my opinion based on three decades of professional observation that most people cannot SAFELY conduct a loaded chamber verification check. Key word SAFELY. Like a finger no where near a trigger and a muzzle totally controlled in a safe direction (which can change, thus you need to be able to check the pistol in a variety of directions, or move it). So, we have a situation where a majority of gun owners cannot safely determine if a semi-automatic pistol is loaded. Just the amount of fingers I see float into or near the trigger just on an "unload and show clear" is disturbing, forget trying to keep the gun loaded. Then...how many can do it in low or no light?
So...this is important. For most people, the most efficient means I have found to do this is to teach a very structured administrative loading and unloading process that allows them to do a verified load and a verified unload. At this point...they just need to leave the gun alone. At one time, I was a compulsive press checker. I decided the risk to gain was not worth it. What I started to do was to gear up at start of shift, do one draw in a safe area and conduct a loaded chamber verification....and then just left the gun alone for the rest of the day as it wasn't going to unload itself. Unless I headed to training, range, or other unusual case where I needed to conduct a load and LCV. A whole bunch of folks get wrapped up in fiddling with the gun prior to "doing something" and are actually setting up a riskier situation.
So, develop an extreamly safe and efficient administrative handling protocal. Learn an efficient way to safely conduct a loaded chamber verification, and be able to do it in any lighting conditions or adapt to environment so it can be done without violating any safety rules-period.

Agreed.

Personally, I'll give up the tenth (if that) speed benefit of using front cocking serrations for the safety benefit of keeping my hand farther away from the muzzle. If you shoot a reliable pistol and keep any pistol intended for defensive use loaded, then racking the slide is pretty unlikely anyways.

As for the long discussion of what many would consider pointless minutiae, isn't that the hallmark of a good p-f thread?

[John Hearne]

The legend, which sounds "truthy" but the veracity of which I cannot swear to, is that when Cooper heard that Caan's character was to be a crook, he refused to teach him at Gunsite since the Modern Technique of the pistol was not for mooks or skells. So Chuck taught him privately, off-site.

From the Gunsite wiki page and confirmed by guys who know:
"Actor James Caan is sometimes included on the list, but when he told Cooper than he wanted to learn the modern technique for his role in the movie Thief, Cooper declined, saying that Caan's character, an ex-con and career criminal, would not have been exposed to such training. Caan and the movie's director did, however, induce Gunsite's Galen D. "Chuck" Taylor to give a one evening crash course, not in shooting, but in looking like he knew how to shoot and move with a handgun."

I also read that in interviews Caan had unfavorable things to say about Cooper and Gunsite. IIRC, he referred to it as a mercenary school and referred to Jeff as "some Nazi in Arizona." Supposedly, he refused to fire a pistol when it was offered.

[Wondering Beard]

With the VP9.....I roll my primary hand over the back of the pistol like the one Tam posted with the 1911 and can do this one handed and physically confirm with my pinkie. I prefer to additionally control the front of the pistol with the support hand from underneath using the front cocking serrations. This gives me a ton of control of the pistol, the support hand allows an extra layer of control and muzzle control, and nothing is near a trigger. Different people, different guns and different situations may require a different procedure. This is an administrative technique that many try to place in a tactical use.

That's been my method since I learned it from John Farnam over 20 years ago; excellent control of the pistol, no fingers near the trigger, capability to still check without any light present.
While front cocking serrations make it a tad easier, it works just as well without in my opinion.

[Duces Tecum]

I also read that in interviews Caan had unfavorable things to say about Cooper and Gunsite. IIRC, he referred to it as a mercenary school and referred to Jeff as "some Nazi in Arizona." Supposedly, he refused to fire a pistol when it was offered.

Oh, my! What a sensitive little special snowflake!

[Tamara]

...he referred to it as a mercenary school and referred to Jeff as "some Nazi in Arizona."

So did the San Francisco press recently, more or less. :/

[HCM]

More interesting:

A High Standard Model 10 shotgun is used by Carl (Dennis Farina) at Frank's car dealership and the final shootout. This film was Dennis Farina's first acting role. His role as a mobster in the film is somewhat ironic as Farina worked for 18 years as an officer in the Chicago Police Department.

and

Sgt. Urizzi (John Santucci) is seen armed with an Ithaca 37 Shotgun when he pulls over Frank (James Caan). John Santucci's role as a police officer in the film is contradictory as to what he was in real life, a former thief. In addition to being a technical advisor for the film, most of the tools used by Frank (James Caan) to crack the safes were his; in fact, at one point in his criminal career he was actually arrested by Dennis Farina while the latter was working with the Chicago PD.

Having the real life / technical advisor cops and thieves switch roles was genius on Mann's part.

[ReverendMeat]

Are we really arguing about how to check if a pistol is loaded?

You would be surprised at how difficult this is for most people. More often than not they'll end up either loading or unloading it, depending on the pistol's condition. Because of this I feel many gun owners would be better off with revolvers simply because they're easier and safer to handle administratively.

[Dagga Boy]

You would be surprised at how difficult this is for most people. More often than not they'll end up either loading or unloading it, depending on the pistol's condition. Because of this I feel many gun owners would be better off with revolvers simply because they're easier and safer to handle administratively.

I may have heard this somewhere before......now where was that?

I think many gloss over the importance of the ability to properly administratively handle a firearm......which is usually where all the real tragedies occur.

[ReverendMeat]

I may have heard this somewhere before......now where was that?

I know you've said the same thing and I'm sure others have arrived at the same conclusion too though I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. I think it bears repeating though, folks here tend to forget that most gun owners don't actually know how guns work.