Info on FBI study regarding trigger weight versus length of pull....

[jthhapkido]

In a separate thread, awhile back...

Clobbersaurus wrote:
"Weight isn't the real safety advantage of the DA trigger, it's the length. Trigger length is quite noticeably more pronounced with a DA gun and it does give you options that an SA or striker trigger does not. "

Tamara said:
"During one episode of this ongoing conversation, ToddG mentioned a study that some of the Feds (I wanna say FBI?) had done, complete with strain gauges on triggers and shit, that did indeed conclude that length of trigger pull was a more important factor than weight if you wanted to cut down on discharges from startle responses, woobie-checking, and the like. I'll be damned if I can find a link to it now. "

And TiroFijo said:
"I remember well the studies mentioned by Tamara (one by an US agency, other european), I'll post them if I can find them. "

I'd REALLY like to read those studies, if anyone has any links (or even just citations) to them. I've been looking for them since the first time I saw Todd comment on them, and I haven't been able to find them.

Anyone able to help with info?

[Tuesday]

There are none explicitly regarding trigger travel as far as I've been able to find over the last month or so of looking off and on.

A German study on involuntary muscle contraction was cited the last time this came up here, but that seems to suggest that any trigger regardless of weight or length is subject to negligent discharge because the index finger is responsible for about 50% of grip strength and ~20% of people involuntarily touch the trigger even when trained not to.

https://www.policeone.com/archive/ar...bey-the-brain/

Might be a case for external safeties on pistols for the ~20%, if they can avoid clicking the safety off involuntarily as well, but it doesn't seem to support the "longer travel is safer" idea.

There's also the Tempe Police Study on reaction times that suggests that unintentionally shooting people in the back is going to happen because people can turn around faster than they can stop pulling the trigger.

http://www.forcescience.org/fsnews/3.html

But it doesn't test trigger travel explicitly and TDA/LEM/DAO shooting techniques often involve overcoming the long trigger travel anyway, such as taking up the slack during pressout.

More studies about shooting that don't have anything in particular to do with trigger travel:

https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/ima...0Resources.pdf

[HCM]

What Todd was referring to were German studies which lead to the current German federal police requirements on trigger travel length.

[jthhapkido]

What Todd was referring to were German studies which lead to the current German federal police requirements on trigger travel length.

What German studies? (Not the link from above, correct? Since those didn't discuss trigger travel length. And I've read Enoka's paper on the subject, and it is...interesting. But not what I'm looking for.)

And....are you sure? Because Todd specifically said "FBI study" when I asked him about it.

As for the other comments, he said (more than once, if I recall correctly) that the study showed that trigger weight was not the fix for (or able to reduce) negligent discharges without making the trigger weight absolutely huge, but the amount of travel specifically did make a difference.

[HCM]

What German studies? (Not the link from above, correct? Since those didn't discuss trigger travel length. And I've read Enoka's paper on the subject, and it is...interesting. But not what I'm looking for.)

And....are you sure? Because Todd specifically said "FBI study" when I asked him about it.

As for the other comments, he said (more than once, if I recall correctly) that the study showed that trigger weight was not the fix for (or able to reduce) negligent discharges without making the trigger weight absolutely huge, but the amount of travel specifically did make a difference.

I've heard about them but I don't know of English translations. This comes from the German Federal Police handgun testing / requirements. It's why so many of the German designs like the LEM, P99, PPQ etc have long nut light trigger pulls.

There is a member over on M4C who goes by Montralia, he is a Polish action / tactical competition shooter and gun blogger with close ties to HK and the European tactical gun world. He would likely be able to get you some more info on this. his blog: http://montrala.blogspot.com/

[YVK]

Tamara said:
"During one episode of this ongoing conversation, ToddG mentioned a study that some of the Feds (I wanna say FBI?) had done, complete with strain gauges on triggers and shit, that did indeed conclude that length of trigger pull was a more important factor than weight if you wanted to cut down on discharges from startle responses, woobie-checking, and the like. I'll be damned if I can find a link to it now. "

Todd also said at one point that the above piece disappeared from a written form when the FBI went to Glock.
I was very interested in this data too and never found a single bit of any objective info. I believe it but solely on a basis of my personal experience.
Maybe SLG can shed some light.

[StraitR]

Was definitely the FBI, and Todd mentions the study being "pre-glock".

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post158243

[StraitR]

From HERE

Against a poorly timed purposeful or subconscious trigger pull, sure. But against any of the myriad other things that might result in something, anything, touching my trigger when I'm not expecting it to go off, having 2x the weight and 3x the trigger travel for a warning or simply a safety margin is a good thing.

The more time I spend around "good" and "experienced" shooters and see how often they trigger check under stress, the more I'm convinced that length of pull is more important than weight to a certain point. The FBI used to say the same thing based on a study they conducted... right up until they adopted the Glock. Then that page went missing from their instructor manuals. True story.

[jthhapkido]

StraitR, those quotes from Todd are _exactly_ the study I'm looking for, and his commentary on their conclusions (why length may make a difference where weight might not) agrees with my personal opinion about it...

Thank you for finding those specific quotes from him. First time I discussed this with him was in a comment thread on one of his posts on the P-T.com page, and I've been looking for that study ever since. People periodically post that they've read it, and every time I'm like "PLEASE give me a link to it!"

...I wish we could find that study!

[John Hearne]

I still have my FBI Firearms Instructor manual from around 2005ish. Would this be in the right time frame?

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