Not being irreverant - but is their constructive criticism to be derived from this?

[Casual Friday]

Really hoping Craig posts in this thread. This situation is very reminiscent of some things that happen in the 2v1 evo in ECQC

It's too bad we can't tag members in posts like on Facebook. Well we got the like button, Tom Jones where ya at buddy? We need tagging capability!

[Tamara]

In certain situations, sure. Seated comes to mind. When I discussed the topic with SLG, he mentioned how effective it was vs someone behind you. Standing face to face, though? I don't see how you disguise what you're doing as effectively with AIWB as you do behind the strong side hip. If someone's figured it out, I'm all ears as I'd love to see a way to patch that weakness.

In a robbery the usual command of "give me your money" or equivalent gives you permission to move and they expect you to reach for a wallet. They are going to see the movement, but as long as they believe you are complying, the advantage is yours. Reaching in to the front of your pants is not the expected motion. Pocket carry is poo-poo'd due to slow draw speed, but I've seen it work really well in these situations. "I'm going to give you my keys/wallet/cell phone" and reach into pocket, produce gun. Your brain is wired to want an explanation and to accept a verbal one if the motions match. Your conscious brain tells lizard brain to hush, everything is going like we want it to, relaxing the flight/fight response. If lizard brain sees physical actions associated with aggression, you can get some confusion as conscious you and lizard you hash it out but flight/fight response starts rising again. Robbers get complacent, too. Lizard you hates novelty, because new things might be dangerous. If you reach for a "wallet" just like the last 5 victims did and the last 5 victims didn't fight back, you are acting in a way that lizard brain is used to, so a further suppression of fight/flight.

The thugs themselves tend to carry there with no holster, so I think they are pre-disposed to see going to your front as an aggressive move.

The bad guys in that video had their head up their ass and you could probably have drawn from anything other than a forehead holster and they wouldn't have noticed. I would say it's not their first take over robbery and they were very comfortable/complacent that they would not face resistance.

This is exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping to get. Looking forward to other possessors of clue weighing in. Thank you!

[Mr_White]

I don't have BBI's perspective and experience with armed robberies, but I think there are a couple of trade-offs to be considered in comparing the issue of telegraphing a strong side vs. AIWB draw.

IMHO, everything BBI said is exactly right about drawing from strong side, starting as feigned compliance. I'd agree that's going to be harder from AIWB, since that's not where wallets usually come from. I think the tradeoff between strong side and AIWB gets outside the specific issue of feigning compliance to start a draw. Getting master grip on an AIWB gun is a lot smaller, less visually provocative motion than the big telltale outboard elbow bend associated with a strong side draw. It may apply more in slightly different situations. And the speed is often better. If and when a person decides to just go for it, never mind a feint, the drag race is probably going to happen faster from AIWB. And, not all misdirection has to be feigned physical compliance with the strong hand. Verbal distraction, movement, getting them to talk, producing a requested item with the support hand, etc., can all still apply regardless of where the gun is carried. How about 'here's my wallet' with the support hand producing the actual wallet, and that's the distractions as the strong hand gets the AIWB gun? I think AIWB can still be pretty strong in this situation out of a combination of draw speed and good tactics besides the (excellent) feigned compliance of 'here comes my wallet' done with the strong hand. I think getting a gun out and into action while under threat can work from both AIWB and strong side, but they may have to be handled a bit differently.

[Clusterfrack]

It was hard to see exactly what was going on in that video. Does Perp 2 have his gun in his left hand or is he grabbing the CCW guy?

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm not to the point of "AIWB will get you killed in the streetz" and I'm sure Mr. White is well prepared from that position. I think for the less dedicated who've put in less practice and perhaps less thought into equipment selection...less so. While my training experience is limited and I try to avoid working with pure beginners, I've seen a higher percentage of AIWB folks bobble the draw. If it works for you, rock it. Just be realistic if it works for you and be aware of the trade offs.

I'm a fan of carrying two guns. Two different carry positions will tend to have the strengths of one cover the weaknesses of the other. My general recommendation for appendix carriers is to pair it with a small pocket gun, which I believe is a pretty effective combo.

[Mr_White]

Lots of agreement with you there BBI!

[philpac33]

After the victim shoots BG1 did he shoot BG2 or just disarm him at gunpoint? The good guy tosses something onto the ground just before he puts BG2 onto the ground, putting his face nearly on top of it? I'm watching the video on my iPad so I can't really tell but was the item he tossed one of the BG's guns? If so, putting BG2 right on top of it was ill-advised.

[voodoo_man]

Good video, few observations...

He went for his gun immediately, that was an unconscious movement because he let off right away and put his hands up - if you watch it again he goes directly for it, instinctively, but doesn't draw because he had a gun pointed at him, he also keeps his right hand away from the BG who was closest to him, then blades and makes the draw.

Notice GG makes the choice of battle ground and orientation, maybe consciously, maybe not, either way it ended up with him having a direct line of sight of both BG's and the closer BG had to look away to see his buddy - this is good

Point blank shot to the low chest area and immediately makes contact with second guy - this is good.

Shot one handed the entire time when there was no need for it - this is bad - learning point

I assume he made physical contact with the second male to make sure he wasn't holding a weapon and to restrain him - that's a judgement call every person will have to make and each situation is different so, good and bad there. I would not have made physical contact, but that's me 20/20 hindsight in my PJ's.

No reload of his gun, maybe doesn't have an extra mag - this is bad - learning point

Immediately scans for third guy after he shoots the second guy, doesn't make sure first BG is out of the fight before moving but does look at him several times to assess his status - this is good because he made a choice to move and make contact, he made an assessment before movement - think then move



Personal opinions on application of AIWB:

The BG who was closest to the GG made physical contact with the GG. This means they were both in each others reactionary gaps. The BG made contact with the GG's shoulder allowing his hands to be free, this is a bad move on the BG's part. At that point the position of the holster would almost be irrelevant. Furthermore, if the GG preloaded his draw - by placing his thumb underneath his shirt - he would have drawn and contact/face shot the guy before he would have been able to react, even going slowly. Someone who practices the draw and combatives would have been able to elbow/spear elbow/face hit with hand while simo-drawing his pistol and doing some contact shots - two or three would be nice - single gun shot to the face would have been best, hit the switch if you can access it. Moving on to the second guy would have been easy as well since he lined himself up for secondary contact, again holster position is irrelevant at this time.

A blade comes in handy in this type of situation - hypothetical:

BG grabs GG's right hand/wrist instead of shoulder - would require a separate action in order to begin a draw stroke, like striking the BG in the face, GG ripping hand away which may get unnecessary attention. Solution is to have a blade accessible with both hands, left hand draw stroke into BG's carotid artery, use it as a handle as you simo-draw and put bullets into the second BG.





BG=bad guy
GG=good guy
PJ's=pajamas

[11B10]

Good video, few observations...

He went for his gun immediately, that was an unconscious movement because he let off right away and put his hands up - if you watch it again he goes directly for it, instinctively, but doesn't draw because he had a gun pointed at him, he also keeps his right hand away from the BG who was closest to him, then blades and makes the draw.

Notice GG makes the choice of battle ground and orientation, maybe consciously, maybe not, either way it ended up with him having a direct line of sight of both BG's and the closer BG had to look away to see his buddy - this is good

Point blank shot to the low chest area and immediately makes contact with second guy - this is good.

Shot one handed the entire time when there was no need for it - this is bad - learning point

I assume he made physical contact with the second male to make sure he wasn't holding a weapon and to restrain him - that's a judgement call every person will have to make and each situation is different so, good and bad there. I would not have made physical contact, but that's me 20/20 hindsight in my PJ's.

No reload of his gun, maybe doesn't have an extra mag - this is bad - learning point

Immediately scans for third guy after he shoots the second guy, doesn't make sure first BG is out of the fight before moving but does look at him several times to assess his status - this is good because he made a choice to move and make contact, he made an assessment before movement - think then move



Personal opinions on application of AIWB:

The BG who was closest to the GG made physical contact with the GG. This means they were both in each others reactionary gaps. The BG made contact with the GG's shoulder allowing his hands to be free, this is a bad move on the BG's part. At that point the position of the holster would almost be irrelevant. Furthermore, if the GG preloaded his draw - by placing his thumb underneath his shirt - he would have drawn and contact/face shot the guy before he would have been able to react, even going slowly. Someone who practices the draw and combatives would have been able to elbow/spear elbow/face hit with hand while simo-drawing his pistol and doing some contact shots - two or three would be nice - single gun shot to the face would have been best, hit the switch if you can access it. Moving on to the second guy would have been easy as well since he lined himself up for secondary contact, again holster position is irrelevant at this time.

A blade comes in handy in this type of situation - hypothetical:

BG grabs GG's right hand/wrist instead of shoulder - would require a separate action in order to begin a draw stroke, like striking the BG in the face, GG ripping hand away which may get unnecessary attention. Solution is to have a blade accessible with both hands, left hand draw stroke into BG's carotid artery, use it as a handle as you simo-draw and put bullets into the second BG.





BG=bad guy
GG=good guy
PJ's=pajamas

PJ's at 7:59?

[voodoo_man]

PJ's at 7:59?

It's an early night