Alias Training "Divorces"

[jlw]

Here's the policy I have been using for classes:

Weather policy: If the weather is such that it jeopardizes the students' safety, the class will be postponed or delayed as appropriate. Otherwise, the class will go forth as scheduled rain or shine.
Cancellation Policy: The deposit is non-refundable if you choose not to attend the class. If I am forced to cancel the class for reasons other than the above outlined weather policy, students will have the option of refund of their deposit or attending the course on another date at a reduced fee.

[VolGrad]

Makes me wonder though how long Alias has been in arrears on paying instructors. I am guessing this problem didn't appear overnight.

Frankly, I'm not really surprised to hear Alias went belly up. I have heard stories second hand for a while and have seen many folks complain about overbooked classes, etc. I hate so many folks got caught up in it though. Makes me appreciate much more the locally hosted (but big name) classes I've taken over the years.

[redbone]

You are way, way off base from anything that I have posted. I haven't written anything close to what you are suggesting.

You know when I write a post I'm not just responding to what you wrote? There are posters in this thread other than you.

I haven't seen any of the impacted instructors post anything to what you are suggesting.

It's been said that Pat Mac isn't going to honor the course fees already paid by students. (I don't know if he did or didn't, and he might very well change that anyway.) Or maybe it was Jeff Gonzales At the very least, JoshRunkle said we shouldn't expect Pat Mac to honor the fees and "work for free." That's what prompted my first reply in this thread.

What the instructors are saying is that they haven't been paid for past classes. Not a single one of them has posted anything about those students needing to send money. I haven't seen a single person here post anything to that effect.

Of course they haven't. They would be ridiculed if they did. That's my point. But the logic of saying the students are responsible for eating the already paid fees for future classes that are now cancelled dictates that that students should also be responsible for making sure instructors get paid for classes that have already been held for which Alias didn't pay the instructors.

What the instructors are saying is that they are not going to teach any future classes on the Alias schedule. They are also saying that they have not received any money paid towards those classes and that those seeking refunds need to seek them from the entity that received said money, and that is Alias.

Yes, by all means students should be trying to get the money back themselves from Alias but the question is also what happens if Alias declares bankruptcy and the fees are gone/spent and its a case of trying to get blood from a turnip? What happens then? Should students eat the $525 for a Pat McNamara class, or should he hold the class anyway? (My argument would be that he should, since he's the one that decided to use Alias and therefore the risk that Alias would close up shop and lose the money is one he should have considered when hiring them to work for him. You can't just say "It's not Pat's or Jeff's fault." Yeah, it is kinda his fault, in the sense he hired Alias to do work for them. That's all.)

I applaud LAV and Craig (extending credit to students if they don't get their money back).

[orionz06]

Yes, by all means students should be trying to get the money back themselves from Alias but the question is also what happens if Alias declares bankruptcy and the fees are gone/spent and its a case of trying to get blood from a turnip? What happens then? Should students eat the $525 for a Pat McNamara class, or should he hold the class anyway? (My argument would be that he should, since he's the one that decided to use Alias and therefore the risk that Alias would close up shop and lose the money is one he should have considered when hiring them to work for him. You can't just say "It's not Pat's or Jeff's fault." Yeah, it is kinda his fault, in the sense he hired Alias to do work for them. That's all.)

I applaud LAV and Craig (extending credit to students if they don't get their money back).

As mentioned above... There were no reasons to believe Paul/Alias would flat out steal from their customers (instructors and students). Surely one could find a whole list of reasons to not ever give them a dime for personal and ethical reasons but never once was there an indication mentioned that getting the money would never happen. Might the wrong targets show up at the wrong house two weeks after a class occurred? Yup... Might there be 26 students in a 16 student class? Yup. Might a range payment be months late? Yup. Never theft. Nothing that prevents this from being surprising occurred either but there's not a single thing that has happened that makes me think that any of these guys should be obligated to hold a class anyway. Surely it might suit them for long term business reasons, sure does look good, but why would they take even more losses on top of where they stand now?

[redbone]

why would they take even more losses on top of where they stand now?

Well, LAV and Craig have decided to do it. I would guess they are doing it because they think it's the right thing to do.

But my argument isnt predicated on a the premise that the instructors should have seen it coming. Which I think is your argument, right? The fact that they couldn't have foreseen this coming means the instructors shouldnt be held responsible. I agree they wouldn't necessarily have seen this coming, but in my argument that doesn't absolve them from making it right with the students. Everyone is harping on the fact that Alias is a third party that just booked services (and advertised classes, and promoted them on Soldier Systems and handled logistics, and took payment, etc.) In my opinion it doesn't matter that Alias is a third party. The instructors hired Alias. Whether it was an in-house employee or a contractor that is responsible for the fiasco doesn't matter to me.

[orionz06]

Well, LAV and Craig have decided to do it. I would guess they are doing it because they think it's the right thing to do.

Is LAV really teaching the rest of 2016 on his own dime?


No one other than the instructors themselves can speak to their financials but not everyone is in the same place... Why in the fuck would a guy who just got raped outta 6 months pay fly/drive across the country with guns to turn noise into money when it wasn't their responsibility in the first place. On top of potentially having to pay more cash to even consider getting some of it back... Surely the whole good faith credit thing goes a long way but to expect the same out of each guy is ridiculous. The happy ending is everyone teaching classes outta the kindness of their own hearts and having a great 2017 fully booked in advance due to their efforts but this is the real world...


Pat Mac has a class in god damned Alaska... The right thing has limits, the man was just robbed too.

[orionz06]

But my argument isnt predicated on a the premise that the instructors should have seen it coming. Which I think is your argument, right? The fact that they couldn't have foreseen this coming means the instructors shouldnt be held responsible. I agree they wouldn't necessarily have seen this coming, but in my argument that doesn't absolve them from making it right with the students. Everyone is harping on the fact that Alias is a third party that just booked services (and advertised classes, and promoted them on Soldier Systems and handled logistics, and took payment, etc.) In my opinion it doesn't matter that Alias is a third party. The instructors hired Alias. Whether it was an in-house employee or a contractor that is responsible for the fiasco doesn't matter to me.

That's exactly my argument. It's not like all of the instructors were in cahoots with Paul and still got paid and are taking the summer off. There was a service paid for by them. They never saw your dime and were robbed just like the rest. Just because they still possess the means to do the class doesn't mean they should. It's certainly nice that some are gonna go outta their way to do what they can but what if all of them can't?

[redbone]

Serious question, are you sure or was it the other way around? Who sent whom a 1099 at the end of the year?

I'm not sure of anything and have no inside knowledge. I would only say that the perception is that students are purchasing a course from the instructors - not purchasing an Alias course to be taught by a contract employee. But I honestly don't know. This would seemingly matter if this ever went to court, so good question.

[Mr_White]

I'm not sure of anything and have no inside knowledge. I would only say that the perception is that students are purchasing a course from the instructors - not purchasing an Alias course to be taught by a contract employee. But I honestly don't know. This would seemingly matter if this ever went to court, so good question.

I guess the way I would think to look at it is, 'who did the student pay the money to'? If they went to an Alias website or called Alias on the phone and paid, then they are most fundamentally Alias' customer. Not trying to discount that the instructor and their reputation is also involved, but I'd personally focus on the party whom the student paid.

[jlw]

I've hosted a class for Craig. I have attended a Hackathorn class that was not put on by Alias, and a Proctor class that wasn't booked through Alias.

Craig has stated in this thread that he was solicited by Alias to teach classes.

Alias charged a higher fee for classes it booked compared to classes booked privately through the instructors.