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Thread: Double homicide and LE response

  1. #1
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Double homicide and LE response

    The SO got a call from a neighbor who was wounded, and rolls up to find a guy chewing the face off one of his victims. They tried a Taser and K9 before wrestling him off the victim. Personally I wouldn't have fucked around with any of that given a crazed attacker with three critically injured victims, but I'm out of date and possibly out to lunch. For those still working would you use less lethal on Hannibal Lector or not?

    http://www.wptv.com/news/police-inve...ng-in-tequesta
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  2. #2
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    The SO got a call from a neighbor who was wounded, and rolls up to find a guy chewing the face off one of his victims. They tried a Taser and K9 before wrestling him off the victim. Personally I wouldn't have fucked around with any of that given a crazed attacker with three critically injured victims, but I'm out of date and possibly out to lunch. For those still working would you use less lethal on Hannibal Lector or not?

    http://www.wptv.com/news/police-inve...ng-in-tequesta
    I'm not only currently on the job, but I'm a new LEO. I bring that up because there's no "that's how we would've done it in my day" factor with me.

    Sumdood eating a person's face is out there, either due to mental issues or drugs. The attackers actions lead me to believe they have an altered state of mind, and given the attacker is in the middle of committing grievous bodily harm my training as a LEO leads me to believe that intermediate force adjuncts as a first course of action will not only be ineffective but doing so in lieu of deadly force is unethical as I know my actions will likely result in continued harm to the victim.

    Given the totality of the circumstances, I'd be inclined to deliver close range head shots as opposed to COM if the opportunity would present itself. I'm required by policy to give warnings if reasonable (if doing so would not lead to unnecessary risk to bystanders or LEOs). That would be fulfilled by yelling at the prick as I run up to him and pop his dome.

    That said, I wasn't at the scene. There could have been factors that led the LEOs to use intermediate force, like PERF 30 policy or maybe the guy put down his manwich upon a warning which gave the responders pause.
    Last edited by TGS; 08-17-2016 at 07:09 AM.
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  3. #3
    Every situation is different and every cop has a different skill set when it comes to hands on Habius Grabbus.

    With that said, given the fact that he had top control and is tearing a guy's face off with his teeth, I'd have attempted a baton strike to a "red" area if possible which is deadly force in our continuum given the close proximity of the victim. I'm 6'2 and pushing 230 and feel quite certain I could have took him out that way.

    If that didn't work, yeah, then head shots to the cranium hoping that none penetrate through or tunnel between the scalp and skull and strike the victim.

    Tough call though. I feel quite certain that no Grand Jury here would ever indict a cop or citizen for popping this guy's grape.
    Last edited by lwt16; 08-17-2016 at 07:17 AM.

  4. #4
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    The stated reason for not shooting the zombie was that they weren't aware the victim was dead and they were concerned with hitting him.

    The cynic in me thinks "yeah, no shit, you're a cop and you probably *would* hit them thanks to no training, no practice, and a department that cares about neither".

    The optimist in me thinks "that's probably a great reason".

    As a member of the community in which this happened, I'm actually glad they didn't shoot him. While I'd likely have simply walked up and put one in his dome at contact distance, as a "citizen" I want to know more about why and how this happened, and with the kid dead that simply wouldn't happen.

    By all accounts this kid is a dentist's sone, getting As, was a high school athlete, in a frat, etc. so society should have him pegged as a "good white kid". I want to know how a good white kid goes from dinner at the local chain restaurant with mom and dad to gnawing faces an hour later.

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    I wasn't there but TGS summed it up very well. Ballsy move taking him down like that.

  6. #6
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    As much as we'd all like to see the responders go all Rick Grimes on a zombie and shoot the zombie in the head with a Python held at hat brim height, I commend the restraint shown. I'd love to think that the responder was thinking "Rule 4 - be sure of your target your backstop and beyond...", but that's probably wishful thinking.

    The officer(s) accepted risk that the CLEARLY whack-a-doo (technical law enforcement description) attacker would be unimpressed by intermediate use of force methods, and they made the arrest work anyway without (potentially) causing further injury to the victims. Of course, if someone(s) had camera(s) running, that might have been an influence as well, because, you know "Zombie undeadness matters!"

  7. #7
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Well, with the actor eating a downed victim, I am going to immediately think that one (or more) of the newer synthetic drugs, such as "bath salts" is part of the equation, and seeing that the actor is a "muscular" young man, I will know that I have almost zero chance of successfully using physical force, and that my Taser has a slim-to-zero chance of working.

    A young man on "bath salts," who had bitten chunks of flesh from his grandmother, and then put three of my colleagues through an epic battle, was the subject of a story I recently typed in the "roll call stories" thread. (I arrived shortly after the battle, to photograph the scene, and injuries.) Two of those colleagues were larger and stronger than I am, and third smaller, but quite fit. Their Tasers had no effect. Had I, instead of my colleagues, arrived at that scene, alone, I have little doubt I would have had to go to lethal force almost immediately.

    To be clear, every case is different, and my response is going to depend upon the totality of the circumstances.
    Last edited by Rex G; 08-17-2016 at 09:27 AM.

  8. #8
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    By all accounts this kid is a dentist's sone, getting As, was a high school athlete, in a frat, etc. so society should have him pegged as a "good white kid". I want to know how a good white kid goes from dinner at the local chain restaurant with mom and dad to gnawing faces an hour later.
    As echoed above, I'd probably go with "bath salts" or some other form of stimulant/amphetamine psychosis. Illicit stimulants can be terrifyingly powerful. I once saw a patient come in who had been shooting heroin and meth in her parents basement. Was combative on scene with LEOs and EMS. This won her a healthy dose of haldol and versed IM. She came in jibbering, combative, and purposeful against restraints despite having a blood pressure of like 75/50. Most people who have a BP like that don't have the energy to get out of bed.
    Last edited by Nephrology; 08-17-2016 at 09:35 AM.

  9. #9
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    As echoed above, I'd probably go with "bath salts" or some other form of stimulant/amphetamine psychosis. Illicit stimulants can be terrifyingly powerful. I once saw a patient come in who had been shooting heroin and meth in her parents basement. Was combative on scene with LEOs and EMS. This won her a healthy dose of haldol and versed IM. She came in jibbering, combative, and purposeful against restraints despite having a blood pressure of like 75/50. Most people who have a BP like that don't have the energy to get out of bed.
    What has me, and other locals, baffled is what kind of "upstanding rich white kid" goes to dinner with his family while home from college and winds up high on bath salts? I mean, how the hell does that unfold?

    "you guys go ahead and grab a table, I'm just going to go wash up" and then scarf/smoke/swallow (I have no clue how one ingests these things) your drug of choice and emerge wanting to strip naked and munch some faces?

  10. #10
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    What has me, and other locals, baffled is what kind of "upstanding rich white kid" goes to dinner with his family while home from college and winds up high on bath salts? I mean, how the hell does that unfold?

    "you guys go ahead and grab a table, I'm just going to go wash up" and then scarf/smoke/swallow (I have no clue how one ingests these things) your drug of choice and emerge wanting to strip naked and munch some faces?
    Drug abuse is far, far, far more common than you might think. Even (and maybe especially) among the children of the upper classes.

    Total speculation but it's possible he already used some type/amount of stimulants that day (perhaps explaining the outburst at the restaurant), and his angry little lizard brain told him "do more! fuck it!" and the next thing you know, it's snack time.

    Drug abuse doesn't follow rules that make sense to anyone else. Our brain can do some really weird shit when you throw enough garbage into it. I'm sure you know of someone who is a totally nice, pleasant guy/gal when sober, but put enough booze in them and they become a raging asshole. Same idea. Same people also often will have no conscious control over how much they drink - they'll start with one, then two, then before you know they've finished a handle of vodka and are on their way to the store to buy more. It's a tragedy of the human condition.
    Last edited by Nephrology; 08-17-2016 at 09:51 AM.

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