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Thread: Mike Pannone on Pistol Sights

  1. #1
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Mike Pannone on Pistol Sights

    Really good information.


  2. #2
    Site Supporter CCT125US's Avatar
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    This video is deserving of a bump.

    Working through some accuracy issues and how to best deal with them reminded me of this video. Did a bit of searching and was able to find it. We should all be aware that accuracy is a combination of what the gun / ammo, and shooter can do. Breaking things down further, in my opinion, the shooter is affected by 3 things that can over lapping and intertwined.

    Physical - Are you able to finish flat at the break? Are you able to hold the firearm steady enough for the desired target zone? If you were projecting a laser (get a boresighter) onto the target, how much is it moving? Everyone has a different wobble zone. This can be worked on.

    Mental - You must be focused on the task of breaking a clean shot. You need to mentally assign a level of high importance to each shot. Eliminating any minute changes in grip, the desire to counteract recoil (flinch). Dryfire - what happens to the sight picture? This will only be magnified during live fire, and at distance.

    Visual - The above video is a fantastic resource. How many shooters know / discovered that the sun pulls your groups? To what degree, and at what distance does it matter? This leads to the shooters perception of the sights, or rather the misperception. Light makes edges appear sharp, but also casts shadows. This seems obvious, but what does a .01 shadow do to perception? I checked the https://dawsonprecision.com/sight-calculator/ and at 25 yards a Glock 19 will hit 1.5" from POA. It's not that the gun is off, it's the visual perception. 1.5" may not seem like much, but how is it when combined with the trigger press, mechanical accuracy and ammo? If you are aware of it, you can account for it.

    Just some thoughts
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  3. #3
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    That is a great vid packed with information. I too have seen bright sun rising over my right rear shooting in the morning and seen hits shift to my right. The mad blooming of the yellow HD's making it worse probably. I think the yellows bloom like that worse than the orange.



    The biggest aha for me was his point about how under pressure one will align to the most prominent reference such as the fiber optic. So if one thought one would use the top part of the post above the FO rod, and only use the FO for speed up close, one is mistaken he argues. Under pressure one will just use the FO. So he learns to do all his shooting aligning the FO and ignores the top of the post.
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  4. #4
    Pretty sure in years past on PF, we have discussed the effect of sun angle on iron sight POI.
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    Site Supporter CCT125US's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Pretty sure in years past on PF, we have discussed the effect of sun angle on iron sight POI.
    Absolutely. But when did we not beat a topic to death.. Besides, not everyone has been around here for 8 years, and newcomers may find the information useful.
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  6. #6
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCT125US View Post

    Physical - Are you able to finish flat at the break? Are you able to hold the firearm steady enough for the desired target zone? If you were projecting a laser (get a boresighter) onto the target, how much is it moving? Everyone has a different wobble zone. This can be worked on.
    Regarding Bore Alignment and Wobble Zone (WZ), the two go hand-in-hand. Part of becoming an accurate shooter is accepting the WZ as well as controlling the WZ.

    Sight Picture is usually where the shooter perceives the WZ. As distance to the target increases the perceived WZ appears to be greater.

    Sight Alignment is the dominate factor in accuracy. If your sights are in perfect alignment (equal height, equal light) when the shot breaks the round will travel to the target on a path parallel to the shooters line of sight. That round will impact the target within the WZ no matter the distance. (accurate gun, good ammo, handgun distances). A shooter who observes their WZ at 3 yards within the 10-ring on a NRA B-8 repair center needs to understand that with perfect sight alignment at 25 yards the WZ in no different, yet due to optics the WZ appears to circumscribe a greater area on the target. What I am describing here (perfect sight alignment and within a wobble zone) results in Parallel Distortion. The round travels to the target on a path Parallel to the line of sight because the bore was parallel to the line of sight when the shot broke. The path of the round fired travels within an imaginary cylinder between the muzzle and the target with a diameter of the cylinder equal to the Wobble Zone.

    Now the KILLER of accuracy Angular Distortion. When a shot breaks with equal height equal light violated angular distortion is introduced into the path the round travels. Due geometry the greater the distance to the target the more error angular distortion will impart. It will not matter how minimal the shooter's WZ. If the shooter is close to the target some angular distortion is acceptable. A drill to try is shoot at a 3" x 5" index card mounted horizontally. Shoot at 3 yards, aim at the center of the card then move your front sight post to the extreme left within the rear notch. Repeat for front sight right, front sight high & front sight low. At 3 yards all four shots will likely be on the index card. Now increase the distance, repeat the drill and observe the effect. This will demonstrate both the effect of angular distortion and teach the shooter what type of sight alignment is acceptable for the shot required. With Angular Distortion the path of the round fired is within a cone that originates at the muzzle and expands toward the target (yes WZ effect is still there but of lesser importance).

    Try the following at what ever distance you are comfortable at: Present your weapon to the target. Align the sights on the target. Once you have achieved an acceptable sight picture FORGET ABOUT IT! Put all your focus on PERFECT sight alignment and managing that sight alignment throughout the trigger press. That fuzzy Bull will be out there behind your sights. You don't need to focal shift back and forth sights & target. Doing so takes you off your sights. Off your sights and Mr. Murphy comes along and tweaks in a little angular distortion. Focus on perfect alignment and maintain it throughout the press. Yes there will be wobble ACCEPT IT. Send your rounds down the pipe not into an expanding cone. Over time you can work on using a smaller diameter pipe.

  7. #7
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Pretty sure in years past on PF, we have discussed the effect of sun angle on iron sight POI.

    We did. Probably twice. Not like bear loads but at least twice.


    At that time I wasn't even aware of it. Over this Winter I actually saw it happen a couple times in real time. Kinda cool phenom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    The biggest aha for me was his point about how under pressure one will align to the most prominent reference such as the fiber optic. So if one thought one would use the top part of the post above the FO rod, and only use the FO for speed up close, one is mistaken he argues.
    My own experience shooting under pressure (USPSA and IDPA) has shown me it isn't that difficult to shoot with a target focus up close using the FO as a rough reference and shift to a hard front sight focus (using the top of the sight) for farther/more precise shots.

    So while in general he may be right, everyone has to tests these theories and validate them or not.
    Last edited by Alpha Sierra; 04-16-2019 at 11:12 AM.

  9. #9
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Mike Pannone on Pistol Sights

    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Pretty sure in years past on PF, we have discussed the effect of sun angle on iron sight POI.
    Yes, and I also find that in low light such as indoors, the rear notch is more blurry (because my eye is at a larger aperture) and that can trick me to accept a sight picture with a low POI.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 04-16-2019 at 02:03 PM.
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