Originally Posted by orionz06
Reading that just made my eyes cross!
Reading that just made my eyes cross!
Thanks dude, it's an interesting discussion. One that has been going for quite some time behind the scenes in jits circles, and now becoming more open as Rickson, and others have become more vocal about the issue. I teach the self defense curriculum as part of our intro program. Cecil does as well, (we were just discussing this when I was at Cecil's house a couple months ago), Megaton was/is one of the premier Rickson black belts, and both times I trained with Megaton he emphasized the NHB aspects of the things we were learning. He is definitely one of the guys that thinks street while training sport.
It's a challenge as the self defense aspect is necessary. Ask most guys walking in to sign up for jiujitsu why they are there, and I doubt anyone will say to learn 50/50. They want to learn how to protect themselves or fight or whatever words they use to describe becoming more adept in a fistfight. Later on they just might want to learn 50/50, or work on going inverted to shut down a guard pass, or a host of other sport oriented aspects of this art that I really dig, and practice myself. I just learned a sweet knee bar from bottom 1/2 guard that would get my face smashed in if strikes were in play, the difference for me is I've got enough time in with strikes in play, and just plain old fashioned time on the mat, to recognize this is something that I would only use in a grappling only context. I think that's at the heart of the issue, knowing what works where, and when.
I realize it's hard for me to be neutral, I'm a straight up sports dude. I roll all the time, and have for years because I find it fascinating, challenging, and a never ending learning cycle. The only way to do that is to roll in a sport mode. We roll hard, with intensity, but limit rolling with strikes, and other things that lead to some pretty dramatic injuries. I still get chipped teeth, knee'd in the balls or whatever but the intent isn't there so it's not as bad as a guy that's really trying to G-n-P you into oblivion. So..., with all that typed, I'm partial to how I do it, and the guys I train with do it. An intro program of the self defense curriculum followed by the inclusion of 'jits with hits' training sessions to keep everyone honest. After that? Have fun, be creative, practice the art by training the sport, take it to competitions of various sorts, and pressure test your creations to see how they hold up in an open arena.
Last edited by Paul Sharp; 07-02-2016 at 09:38 PM. Reason: forgot something
I think another way to think about it is; moral victory versus absolute victory. Think about the recent match between Galvao and Gracie. A lot of guys looked at that as a moral victory for Gracie. He proved his point, he played his game which is defense first/street oriented against what some would say is the top sport jits guy around. It wasn't an absolute victory but it could be called a moral victory.
Similar to when Gabe White does well in limited shooting limited minor, from concealment. There are pros and cons to both approaches. I can shoot a match, (is it coincidence old school wrestlers used the term shoot?), as a straight gamer, and go for a clear cut victory hoping to win it all or at least place in the top 10. I can shoot a match from concealment with my carry gear, knowing I'll be lucky to break into the middle of the pack but accept that as a moral victory.
The real issue comes down to honesty. Am I going for the moral victory because I know I suck and even with gamer gear I still would be lucky to break into the middle of the pack so at least with concealed/EDC gear I have an excuse? Or am I really using the action shooting sports as a testing bed for technique, gear, and other factors? This same question applies to jits. Do I go out there, and roll in a self defense mode because I want to prove my approach works even against guys that are the best at the game? Or do I say, this is a game so let me play it to the best of my ability, understanding that in a different environment I would have to do things differently?
Optimally we walk into either sport with a deep skill set, physically prepared for anything, and an adaptive mental state that says; just tell me the rules I have to play by so I can start solving this problem. Because at the end of the day the combat sports are really the only place we can apply this stuff without going to prison.
Last edited by Paul Sharp; 07-02-2016 at 10:14 PM.
That's good stuff Paul, thanks very much!
FWIW, I completely agree with all of that.
I've done BJJ on and off for the last few years. I don't do it for any other reason than keeping a solid base skillset and for supplementing my overall training, like a percentage on the pie chart, I want everything to be as balanced as it needs to be.
However, my threshold is when I find myself starting to resort to competition techniques and rules that's when I quit for a bit. Too many schools have too much political crap "mat politics" I don't subscribe to. I've gone to a few places and some are too soft, some too slow, some only allow certain things for specific belts etc....I found a decent school which allows me to do a lot of stuff (like knee bars and heel drags - no gi) which supports my personal goals.
As for shooting, you can go wild and chase scores. I've had days where I'd chase a 200 score for an hour. We all do. Fact is, there needs to be a middle ground in everything, especially shooting and fighting.
As we all know there isn't a one fix for all, we need to find what works for us and understand why. Usually, for those who work with firearms, having a good understanding of both shooting and fighting is good. BJJ is not unique here, judo, Sambo, etc will work just as well if you get the core skillsets down and at able to do them without issue on demand, same for shooting.
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As a former traditional martial artist who started training in MMA a few years ago, I see much less difference between street training and sport training in BJJ/MMA than I do in TMA street training v. TMA sport training. Is an MMA match really so different from a real fight that an MMA competitor would be handicapped (realizing that this deviates from the initial thread focus of BJJ)? We have certainly seen the necessity of BJJ in MMA. Martial artists should focus less on street v. sport and be happy that the difference between street and sport has narrowed considerably since not very long ago.
MMA and BJJ both require assessing situations, spotting opportunities, and applying techniques under the pressure of a noncompliant training partner who is trying to do the same thing to you. They both require physical fitness, agility, power, speed, good cardio, good timing, good decision making, and good timing. All of these are relevent whether we are talking about street or sport. We just have to learn a few additional skill sets for the street, but we should not let the need to learn these additional skill sets from taking advantage of sport to develop everything else. Cecil Burch likes to say that a sport competitor can adapt to dirty tricks much faster than a person who avoids competition but knows dirty tricks can learn to spot opportunities, make good timing decisions, and execute good techniques under pressure.
Shooting sports require planning, decision making, a good draw stroke, maintaining sight alignment, sight picture, and trigger squeeze, appropriate speed v. accuracy balancing, etc., all things that will help in a gunfight. Having seen some of the drills Gabe White practices for competition, one can immediately see the relevance for self defense. A top level shooting sports competitor is going to be a far worse nightmare for a bad guy than someone who avoids competition out of fear of developing a bad habit.
The comment on honesty really resonates with me.
Not getting submitted by the guy who is of equal skill and has 50lbs on me is a victory for me. As long as I was able to stay relaxed, see the game and breathe. I'd love to be on his back like a backpack, but we can't always be Marcello Garcia.
This is definitely analogous to shooting where competition always helps self defense but I'm partial to being realistic in the game you play. The Gabe White comparisons are spot on. I believe strongly in the self defense aspect of bjj and plan to make it the focus of my son's training(he's 3) when he starts. What good is a black belt if you can't break free of someone grabbing you? Still, competition forces you to be honest with your training and pushes you. You have to decide for yourself what kind of game you play. I prefer a simpler game that can be applied to the street and strive to have a style that I can sustain until I die.
I see a lot of parallels, especially in the N. Va area. A lot of guys that train MMA up here are also shooters and vice versa.
My first exposure to BJJ was in the military, but I started training at a Sport BJJ Academy years ago. I was very lucky that one of the senior students/part time instructor was also into combatives. After class he'd show me a more combative approach. Later I was lucky enough to attend the Army Level I Combatives Instructor course, which at the time, was exclusively the Gracie Combative approach. I was also lucky enough to train with Greg Thompson. In my opinion, the Gracie Combatives is the best system out there for BJJ.
Mr. Pink,
I'm glad you chimed in, I didn't realize you did the Army program as well, though I guess I should have. I'll have to pick your brain on it a bit, just for my own education.
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