BJJ vs. Shooting

[SLG]

Since we already have some BJJ vs. XYZ threads, I thought I'd bring it back to the core of P-F.

I have recently gone full bore into BJJ, and am loving it. It's basically an hour of cuddling, with people you don't really want to cuddle with, but oh well, you take what you can get.

Seriously though, there are HUGE parallels between the state of the BJJ world and the state of the shooting world. Sport Jiu Jistu vs. self defense Jiu Jitsu is a real, current controversy, much like gamer IPSC vs. martial artist IPSC back in the day, or today I guess it is timmies vs. gamers.

In my humble opinion, no greater BJJ fighters exist than Rickson Gracie and Pedro Sauer. Those of you who know more about BJJ than i do may disagree, and you are probably correct. Nonetheless, those two guys epitomize the street aspect of BJJ to me. They have been annoyed at the lack of fighting skills that they are seeing among the sport jiu jitsu crowd, and have taken steps to bring self defense back into the core of BJJ. Given the structure of BJJ, it seems easier to do that than to affect the shooting community. Also, it is much more cut and dry when looking at BJJ, than it is looking at shooting. I also think it is more important for BJJ, than it is for shooting.

Nonetheless, I find it very interesting to see this happening in the BJJ world, and since many of the guys I roll with are also shooters, it makes for some interesting conversations. 2 of them just finished taking a class from Bob Vogel, and it led to much discussion of street vs. competition.

I don't really want to dissect this to death, but I see the gamers vs. street shooter arguments as mostly coming down to training priorities first, and specific technique second.


ANy other BJJ guys out there want to weigh in?

[imp1295]

I've had a internal monologue about this subject in one form or another since getting serious about shooting about 5 years ago. I'm no BJJ expert, but since first getting intro'd to it in the early 90s and then re-kindling my efforts 7 years ago I'd say they are very similar in their debates, but also similar in their answers.

Many of the top guys in the 90s were never accused of be their competition BJJ getting in the way of the self defense. Mainly, because most of them were well established with either Carlos or Helio and they fought. Not just BJJ competition, but they fought in challenge fights, NHB and on the beach (like Rickson) as well. Now, with the mainstreaming of MMA, I'd say that a guy like Wallid Ismail, who was amazing in competition and a wild man in NHB are fewer and far between. In fact, you only do one or the other not both simultaneously. But, I think pure competition people will still hold their own (see Ryan Hall in the pizzeria).

I think the frustration from guys like Rickson, Relson and Sauer is that people don't even know the basic Self Defense stuff anymore (see Budo Jake when he did a spot with Rickson and couldn't do a simple defense from a rear choke IAW the Gracie Traditional way to deal with it.)

But, maybe it isn't like shooting? If you are just a competition shooter type person, you may not know the latest weapon retention stuff from Douglas or Sharp, but your shooting is likely better than the average person. And, as long as it is a shooting problem you will probably be okay.

But, if you don't know the exact BJJ self defense response, the fact that you roll and compete will likely still enable you to get through the ordeal. In fact, I think BJJ might even have more cross over because it will still be a BJJ problem. Whereas, it might not always be a shooting problem.

I train and roll because I like it, and after ECQC it solidified in my head that most people, even those who are substantially bigger than me will likely not know enough to prevent me from at least getting back to my feet and getting the hell out of there.

[SLG]

imp,

As I said, I'm far from deeply knowledgeable about BJJ, let alone modern MMA stuff.

My take is that Rickson and Sauer are not saying that sport jiu jitsu is bad in anyway, just that it needs to follow a base of self defense stuff. Much like sport shooting, it will improve your self defense ability, but not if you disregard the street mindset and go full competition mode.

I've always said that to be a good shooter, you need to shoot competition. However, you can't let competition take over, or you will do things that are sub optimal.

[orionz06]

Sport jiu jitsu is jiu jitsu just like self defense jiu jitsu is jiu jitsu.




Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[ssb]

I train and roll because I like it, and after ECQC it solidified in my head that most people, even those who are substantially bigger than me will likely not know enough to prevent me from at least getting back to my feet and getting the hell out of there.

That's a big thing. Apart from the fun and fitness angles, BJJ gives me something to fall back on in a fight as well as the understanding that I won't spontaneously combust should I get into a fight (I unfortunately grew up in the zero tolerance era). The transition from "holy shit, what's happening" to "OK, I've been here before and I know something about how to handle it" was pretty amazing. In practice, there are nights where I'll ask specifically about breaking out of it and getting away. Most of the guys I roll with are cool with that every now and then (of course, not every roll -- otherwise I'd be wasting training time for them). I drill a lot of escapes and stand-ups, both by virtue of being a white belt as well as due to my training priorities.

I haven't gotten to the point where I'd bring up working with a SIRT or blue gun or dummy knife, but I've identified points in rolling that I felt comfortable accessing a weapon, being mindful of the ECQC principles that have filtered out onto the internet (positional dominance, gain control of the closest limb to the tool I want to access, etc.). Hopefully it serves as a good foundation for when I'm finally in a position to take ECQC.

[Armiger]

After ECQC I started looking at getting into BJJ. There are two decent schools around me, and from what I heard, one is more sporty than the other. I wanted to know if this would be an issue for me as I have really no interest in sport jiujitsu.

I asked around, and generally the consensus was as I suspected. Learning and training skills and fundamentals is hardly a bad thing, how its applied later is what matters. That made plenty of sense to me. I shoot a lot of USPSA, and it has advanced my shooting abilities a ton, especially at speed, and in motion, and it translates well from my game rig to my carry rig.

I need to start training BJJ ASAP (How does one go about getting more hours in a day?) and will not have any hesitations to head to a well reputed sport focused school, and I'm sure the basics will translate to Self D as well.

[Mjolnir]

BJJ is fine. I've done it for about five years.

However, being able to "throw hands" and use kicks and blocks and foot movement is at least as important.

Not sure if many Muay Thai gyms exist nor am I convinced one needs to go that extreme but since all one needs to do is deflect the initial attack to either (1) subdue, (2) flee or (3) "go to steel" one doesn't have to be a six year vet MMA-trained athlete. Though there's not a damned thing wrong with that, either.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[SLG]

After ECQC I started looking at getting into BJJ. There are two decent schools around me, and from what I heard, one is more sporty than the other. I wanted to know if this would be an issue for me as I have really no interest in sport jiujitsu.

I asked around, and generally the consensus was as I suspected. Learning and training skills and fundamentals is hardly a bad thing, how its applied later is what matters. That made plenty of sense to me. I shoot a lot of USPSA, and it has advanced my shooting abilities a ton, especially at speed, and in motion, and it translates well from my game rig to my carry rig.

I need to start training BJJ ASAP (How does one go about getting more hours in a day?) and will not have any hesitations to head to a well reputed sport focused school, and I'm sure the basics will translate to Self D as well.

My understanding so far is just the opposite. Better to learn the street stuff first, then improve your abilities with more focused rolling. No doubt, a good sport practitioner can learn the self defense aspect pretty quickly, but if you don't learn it, then the sport stuff is much less useful.

I have seen this from some of the stuff I've been learning already, but I'm also taking the word of Rickson Gracie. I'd say he knows more about this than any of us. I've been able to test it a bit myself, and have found his idea to be sound so far. When I (as a BJJ white belt) roll with sport only higher belts, my years of striking arts (black belt) allow me to hit them pretty easily. They just don't seem to understand how to deal with that kind of stuff. They only train against other sport oriented guys, and so they not only allow themselves to be open to strikes, but they also alter their BJJ techniques (probably unknown to them, as that is what they were taught) to be competitive with other BJJ guys. When a non BJJ guy gets in the mix (in this case me) sometimes the shortcuts they take against each other, allow me openings to do stuff.

I may not be explaining myself that well. I'm in no way against sport rolling, or sport shooting. But both have their own focus, and that focus is not my focus. Apparently some of the top guys in BJJ seem to agree.

[Paul Sharp]

"Think street. Train sport. Practice the art."

When I first started training with Conan Silveira in Miami in '93, my first lesson was escape from a headlock standing and on the ground. Next lesson was dealing with a standing choke/strangle, (where a guy grabs you by the throat with both hands while facing you), and a haymaker punch. Essentially I spent the first month learning what is now called the Gracie Combatives program, at that time it was just the self defense curriculum as taught by the Carlson Sr guys at Conan's gym. I moved to Chicago in '98 and trained with some Chicago area schools prior to linking up with Chris Haueter, Matt Thornton, and the Straight Blast Gym guys. Chris is our head jits coach, and his emphasis is quoted above; think street, train sport, practice the art.

[SLG]

I was hoping you'd jump in here Paul. Maybe Cecil will as well.

I really like the Gracie combative approach, and to my mind, it makes a lot of sense for new people. In a few years, I'm sure it will all make more sense to me.:-)


eta: Of course I'd like SN to jump in too, but I think he's on the road this weekend. Also, he and I have talked about this a fair bit, so I forgot to mention him since I think I know his thoughts on it already.