Does it really matter to a beginner one way or another. I just started jiu jitsu as well and right now its all about learning the fundamentals. A good base will leave you better preparred than 90% of the population. There isnt a top level shooter with poor trigger just like there isnt a black belt with a bad hip escape. Until you are a high level practitioner I don't see the need to worry about it.
Last edited by The Apprentice; 07-03-2016 at 05:15 PM.
I'd say "yes" and "no". The "fundamentals" could be different between the two, but in my opinion the best thing someone can learn in the beginning is knowing what a "bad" position feels like. I started training in a sport BJJ academy but moved because of work and started training Gracie Combatives with co-workers. There is a difference and depending on your goals, I think it needs to be a concern at lower levels, not just high levels.Originally Posted by The Apprentice
As an example of the differences, during my Army Level I Combatives Course, they showed us several videos of Royce Gracie winning several MMA and no-rules fights, but loosing a BJJ match. They also showed a BJJ champ step into the MMA ring and loose in the first round. These are obviously different than a street fight, but are also examples that you need to be well rounded in a MMA or defense situation.
My goal is to be well rounded and be able to defend myself. In the past a sport BJJ practitioner would probably clean up on the street, but today MMA is so popular that most martial arts schools are teaching some kind of defense against BJJ.
If they're the fundamentals shouldn't they be the same? Aren't the fundamentals of shooting games the same as self defense the same as offensive shooting?
Think for yourself. Question authority.
That's the whole point. They absolutely are not the same in BJJ, nor are they really the same in shooting either. Totally different focus.
That is what Rickson and others want to change, so that the fundamentals are the same, wherever you go. They absolutely are not as of now.
Last edited by SLG; 07-03-2016 at 08:53 PM.
So to bring this a little closer to all parties, what are the fundamentals as you view them in shooting?
Think for yourself. Question authority.
I think we are using fundamentals in different ways.
I view things like trigger control and sight alignment as fundamentals, certainly. I imagine that is what you are thinking of.
Then there are other types of fundamentals. In sport shooting, you need to learn the rules. You need to learn how to analyze a CoF. You need to learn to do very fast in battery reloads (depending on division and sport of course). These are just three examples.
In combat shooting, a few fundamentals that might be analogous to the sport shooting fundamentals are things like learning to use cover. Downed officer drills. A, B and C responses (again depending on your training/school).
None of these things are hard to learn, and a good sport shooter can learn them easily. the difference is focus. Rickson says a good sport BJJ player can learn the defensive stuff pretty easily, but until he learns it, he doesn't know it. My understanding of the BJJ stuff is that not only are there technical differences, like when and how to base or sink a hook, but also the focus. even the techniques themselves. Lots of sport techniques that are of dubious value on the street. In BJJ, the concept of "he who controls the distance controls the fight.", doesn't really apply much to sport BJJ, since no one will hit you if you hang out in the middle ground much. In combat BJJ, it matters quite a bit. As a striker, I have completely changed the direction of a roll when someone doesn't think about defending against strikes, and just wants to do sport stuff.
Maybe you missed Paul's post #12 above. He's a BJJ black belt. I hate appeals to authority, but I freely admit that in BJJ, I am a noob, and though I have had some experiences that illustrate what i'm talking about, I'm also heavily leaning on things that my betters have been talking about. Rickson has videos online talking about this. So does Pedro Sauer. Do you want to tell them they are wrong? I'm certainly not the first to see these parallels, and frankly, when people say it doesn't matter, it makes me think they've never been in a fight.
Roger Gracie is one of the top competitors in the world and uses very basic techniques.
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As does Kron.
I think I would leave the execution out of what the fundamentals are and instead view that as the environment. Environment defines how one executes the fundamentals, be it game rules, ROE, bullets heading your way, etc. Just like BJJ/MMA where there may or may not be strikes, what types of strikes are legal, what submissions are legal, and so on.
Think for yourself. Question authority.
I see your point and understand that there is a difference between the two but just like shooting sports I would say there are more similarities than differences. I train at a Carlson Gracie MMA so I can only speak from my experiance so far. Drilling basic sweeps side control and arm locks and chokes would seem to me to be required. Just like trigger control, reloads, and slide manipulations. As to being well rounded most definitely required but I dont think that is the same thing as self defence bjj and compation bjj its more of a mma or multi disiplinary approach. You need a striking and ground game. Biggest thing to me is mindset I bet I could only train with Ben Stoger and Andre Galvoa and become 100 times better prepared to defend myself and my family than by not training at all and not fare off from if I spent my time with Tom Givens and Rickson Gracie instead especially at the levels I would actually see myself reaching. As a beginner in both disciplines I'm just not that worried about it I'm putting in the work and I'm getting better and having a good time doing it. Bottom line is we are preparing mentally to defend ourselves and our families if you keep that your focus the whole street vs sport is moot point.
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